@sonship : on chains and other worlds

Originally posted by checkbaiter

If you are telling me that you, on the other hand, are for all intents and purposes immortal then you are offering no reason for me to believe you other than that you read something in a book and it has captured your imagination.

I don't claim to be immortal, I only know that what God has promised he will fulfill. We'll leave it at that, rather than some long drawn out exchange of useless nonsense.

No one has claimed to be immortal, despite claims like this from people wishing to make other people appear stupid. Immortal means you don't die, but clearly, ALL humans are going to die once, then the Judgement. Whatever happens in the afterlife (clue: afterlife = 'after' + "life' ) is after you die, so clearly, this claim that people are claiming to be 'immortal' is rubbish.

I do agree that "what God has promised He will fulfill". This is what the atheists don't get. They disavow God to (apparently) get out of the need to repent, but in so doing, they miss out on the promise as well.

They say "you don't know anything". No, God has spoken, so truly, we know.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No one has claimed to be immortal, despite claims like this from people wishing to make other people appear stupid. Immortal means you don't die, but clearly, ALL humans are going to die once, then the Judgement. Whatever happens in the afterlife (clue: afterlife = 'after' + "life' ) is after you die, so clearly, this claim that people are claiming to be 'immortal' is rubbish.

An afterlife that never ends in which you are the same person/soul as you were when alive on earth is clearly a form immortality and sophistry on your part won't alter this.

My dictionary defines immortality as "Perpetual life after death".

Originally posted by FMF
English is my native tongue. And ~ in English ~ you appear to be saying BOTH that claiming "non-believers are burned for eternity in agony" is a distortion of the damnation aspect of your ideology AND you are apparently not confronting any Christians who believe and assert explicitly that "non-believers are burned for eternity in agony" is a key part of your Chr ...[text shortened]... ue is your ambiguous stance on the notion that "non-believers are burned for eternity in agony".

I can't speak for him, but it's my feeling that it's not really my business to call people out for minor matters of faith. We'll all find out the truth when we get there. We are commanded to love our Christian brothers. I'm not going to publicly berate these people for believing they know the truth. That they love God, and are saved by the blood of our Savior, is all that matters. They may have the details wrong, but as I said, we'll ALL find out the details when we get there. It's not really that big a deal. I'd rather discuss other parts of Christianity that have more impact on our salvation than this.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I can't speak for him, but it's my feeling that it's not really my business to call people out for minor matters of faith.

Minor matters of faith? I thought we were talking about salvation, damnation, divine vengeance, eternal torture, the nature of the afterlife for believers and non-believers, the nature of your Christian God figure. Minor matters of faith?

Originally posted by Suzianne
It's not really that big a deal.

Fair enough. I think the notion of "eternal torture" is the most morally repugnant idea that the human imagination has ever come up with.

I's well worth discussing, I reckon.

Originally posted by FMF
An afterlife that never ends in which you are the same person/soul as you were when alive on earth is clearly a form immortality and sophistry on your part won't alter this.

My dictionary defines immortality as "Perpetual life after death".

Sophistry? You accusing me of sophistry is like Hitler claiming the Americans were trying to conquer Europe.

This is sophistry: your claim that your dictionary "defines immortality as 'Perpetual life after death' ". The actual definition of 'immortal' is 'not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying". The claim that to be immortal has anything to do with "after death" is ludicrous in the extreme. "To be immortal" is the same as "not dying". How could it apply to anything "after death"? If you were immortal, you would not have died.

How many dictionaries did you skim to find this definition anyway? Maybe you could tell us which dictionary this is so that we can be sure never to buy it, clearly they didn't do a very good job of it.

Originally posted by FMF
Minor matters of faith? I thought we were talking about salvation, damnation, divine vengeance, eternal torture, the nature of the afterlife for believers and non-believers, the nature of your Christian God figure. Minor matters of faith?

Are you going to spend a post on every sentence of my post? Why?

And no. The nature of what happens when souls go to the Lake of Fire IS a minor matter of faith. CERTAINLY not worth "calling out other Christians" for, as you have urged others to do.

Originally posted by FMF
Fair enough. I think the notion of "eternal torture" is the most morally repugnant idea that the human imagination has ever come up with.

I's well worth discussing, I reckon.

Well, yes, sure, it's worth discussing, but it is NOT worth "calling out other Christians" over it. Divide and conquer, eh? Fight your own battles.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I can't speak for him, but it's my feeling that it's not really my business to call people out for minor matters of faith. We'll all find out the truth when we get there. We are commanded to love our Christian brothers. I'm not going to publicly berate these people for believing they know the truth. That they love God, and are saved by the blood of our ...[text shortened]... I'd rather discuss other parts of Christianity that have more impact on our salvation than this.

🙂

Originally posted by Suzianne
No one has claimed to be immortal, despite claims like this from people wishing to make other people appear stupid. Immortal means you don't die, but clearly, ALL humans are going to die once, then the Judgement. Whatever happens in the afterlife (clue: afterlife = 'after' + "life' ) is after you die, so clearly, this claim that people are claiming to be ...[text shortened]... ll.

They say "you don't know anything". No, God has spoken, so truly, we know.

ALL humans are going to die once, then the Judgement.

Except when Christ returns, and we which are still alive will be changed..🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter

ALL humans are going to die once, then the Judgement.

Except when Christ returns, and we which are still alive will be changed..🙂

Right.

But I expect I will have died before we get there. The AntiChrist will be responsible for enough deaths, especially Christians, to make Hitler and Stalin look like noobs.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The claim that to be immortal has anything to do with "after death" is ludicrous in the extreme. "To be immortal" is the same as "not dying". How could it apply to anything "after death"? If you were immortal, you would not have died.

I think you've got it wrong in terms of how the word "immortality" applies in discussions of a spiritual and religious nature.

"By immortality is ordinarily understood the doctrine that the human soul will survive death, continuing in the possession of an endless conscious existence." ~ http://www.newadvent.org/ ~ Catholic Encyclopedia

"unending existence" ~ Merriam Webster

"What form an unending human life would take, or whether an immaterial soul exists and possesses immortality, has been a major point of focus of religion, as well as the subject of speculation, fantasy, and debate. In religious contexts, immortality is often stated to be among the promises by God (or other deities) to human beings who show goodness or else follow divine law." ~ Wikipedia ~ "Immortality"

"Perpetual life after death." ~ The Sage's English Dictionary and Thesaurus

"The word itself means "endless life." One who is "mortal" will eventually die; one who is "immortal" will never die. Even if his body dies and returns to dust, his "soul" or "spirit" [or what might be called the "soul/spirit complex"] continues to exist apart from the body. Belief in immortality in this sense is almost intuitive. It seems so obvious to most people that the soul/spirit is quite distinct from the body—so much so that, when it finally leaves the body, it just must continue on somewhere else." ~ Institution for Creation Research.

"Immortality, in philosophy and religion, the continuity of human spiritual existence after the death of the body. The concept of immortality is to be distinguished from that of bodily resurrection." ~ Encyclopaedia Britannica.

"A state or condition free from both death and decay. The Bible affirms that only God bynature has immortality ( 1 Tim 6:16 ; cf. Deut 32:40 ; Rom 1:23 ; 1 Tim 1:17 ). It also implies that it is a potential state for human beings. Humankind failed to obtain this state because of sin ( Gen 2:17 ; 3:19 ), but it is given by God to righteous persons ( Rom 2:6-7 ; 1 Cor 15:23-56 )." ~ http://www.biblestudytools.com/

"Immortality is the indefinite continuation of a person’s existence, even after death. In common parlance, immortality is virtually indistinguishable from afterlife, but philosophically speaking, they are not identical. Afterlife is the continuation of existence after death, regardless of whether or not that continuation is indefinite. Immortality implies a never-ending existence, regardless of whether or not the body dies (as a matter of fact, some hypothetical medical technologies offer the prospect of a bodily immortality, but not an afterlife)." ~ Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy ~ http://www.iep.utm.edu/immortal/

Originally posted by Suzianne
And no. The nature of what happens when souls go to the Lake of Fire IS a minor matter of faith. CERTAINLY not worth "calling out other Christians" for, as you have urged others to do.

That the God figure you just so happen to worship might be torturing billions of people forever as revenge for not believing in Him may be a "minor matter" for you, but your solidarity with other Christians as expressed in your dismissing such a morally depraved notion as "minor", calls into question your entire moral compass and how it is perverted by your own faith or your lack of critical faculties when it comes to the faith of others. I think it is fascinating, and ~ yes ~ I urge Christians to discuss it with each other.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I can't speak for him, but it's my feeling that it's not really my business to call people out for minor matters of faith.

You think that accepting that billions of people will be predestined to burn for eternity in a created and sustained place which is purpose built, is a "minor matter of faith"?

You see, I think it is the single most disgusting and horrific sleight on our god there is, and those believing it have allowed their perspective of god to be so warped that they have lost all grip on reason, the gospel and justice.

It's a huge issue.

Originally posted by divegeester
You think that accepting that billions of people will be predestined to burn for eternity in a created and sustained place which is purpose built, is a "minor matter of faith"?

You see, I think it is the single most disgusting and horrific sleight on our god there is, and those believing it have allowed their perspective of god to be so warped that they have lost all grip on reason, the gospel and justice.

It's a huge issue.

I know Div, but God can take care of Himself.

It is definitely slander, but how about God killing people. How about God being blamed for all sorts of reprehensible things?
God kills babies or innocent people in a car crash and at church they say "God took them home?"
God is blamed for Tornadoes, Hurricanes, and the list goes on...

I even heard a pastor say God took his daughter home because "God loved her so much".
And Satan gets away scott free. No blame, no hatred for Satan. People are angry with God.
And the bible says this...
John 10:10
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
NKJV


http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/dont-blame-god-a-biblical-answer-to-the-problem-of-evil-sin-and-suffering