13 Jun 14
Originally posted by KellyJaySimple english needs no further explanation. This is the reason why many Christians have gone astray .. they believe that Christ was unable to explain himself and Christ needs YOU to explain what he said. Christ is clear. It is simple english. Read it and accept it or remain lost.
What was Christ telling everyone to do here?
Explain the verse please, do you think Jesus is telling all His followers to
main themselves here?
Kelly
Similarly Christ said love your neighbour and love God and you will get eternal life. But that was not clear enough. You Christians decided that you did not feel like loving your neighbour so you manipulated the Bible and created another doctrine along the lines of once saved always or i can sin and escape judgment or love and good works is not required.
13 Jun 14
Originally posted by divegeesterI agree, except that I did attempt to clarify what I mean, and you stated that you would not read the clarification but rather focus on the original statement.
As you have said to me many many times - you are only what you post and if what you post is not what you mean, then you only have yourself to blame.
Feel free to explain why you feel Kelly is being "perfectly reasonable" in his pronouncements that the JW parents should be free (both in terms of law and conscience) to allow their daughter to die rather than recieve blood.
I have attempted to do so both in this thread and the other one I mentioned and you expressed your disinterest in reading the clarification and have instead insisted on repeatedly going back to the original post of mine which I fully admit is not clear and does not necessarily reflect my actual views. In fact the original post containing the phrase 'perfectly reasonable' was referring specifically to his views on his own beliefs and not those of the JWs and I admit that it may have been my fault if I incorrectly implied that I was referring to his views on JWs.
13 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm asking you to explain what it means to you! I know what I believe it
Simple english needs no further explanation. This is the reason why many Christians have gone astray .. they believe that Christ was unable to explain himself and Christ needs YOU to explain what he said. Christ is clear. It is simple english. Read it and accept it or remain lost.
Similarly Christ said love your neighbour and love God and you will get ete ...[text shortened]... es of once saved always or i can sin and escape judgment or love and good works is not required.
says, but I am asking you to teach me what it is you get out of it.
I've never preached once saved always saved, so if you want to explain
your views about what Jesus was saying it may help me if I'm not
understanding it. I've never preached you can live to sin and escape judgment
if you bothered to read the thread you'd see that is far from what this
discussion has been about with respect to my position. As far as I'm
concern I'd rather die than accept some forms of life saving methods if
sin was involved. I don't see how you'd get once saved always saved
from my position.
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13 Jun 14
Originally posted by twhiteheadFair enough - I've not read every post in this thread as I've been travelling abroad with work and not had the time. Although I expressed my incredulousness at your comment, I was somehow sure you could not be agreeing with Kelly's top level argument based on reading your posts for many years. So I really did think you were "trolling" me. It seems clear now that were not doing that, although I'll need to read you other stuff to fully understand what you meant. We should all give each other a break at times - it's easy to write something and be unclear, mistaken or misunderstood. Sorry for brow-beating you.
I agree, except that I did attempt to clarify what I mean, and you stated that you would not read the clarification but rather focus on the original statement.
[b]Feel free to explain why you feel Kelly is being "perfectly reasonable" in his pronouncements that the JW parents should be free (both in terms of law and conscience) to allow their daughter ...[text shortened]... hat it may have been my fault if I incorrectly implied that I was referring to his views on JWs.
13 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat it means to me is as folllows : if your hand or your foot cause you to sin, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if your eye cause you to sin, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
I'm asking you to explain what it means to you! I know what I believe it
says, but I am asking you to teach me what it is you get out of it.
I've never preached once saved always saved, so if you want to explain
your views about what Jesus was saying it may help me if I'm not
understanding it. I've never preached you can live to sin and escape judgmen ...[text shortened]... thods if
sin was involved. I don't see how you'd get once saved always saved
from my position.
OK?
13 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999So I again ask you, are you suggesting that Christians should be cutting off
What it means to me is as folllows : if your hand or your foot cause you to sin, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if your eye cause you to sin, pluck it out, and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
OK?
their body parts themselves to stop sin?
Kelly
13 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI have suggested nothing.
So I again ask you, are you suggesting that Christians should be cutting off
their body parts themselves to stop sin?
Kelly
Christ said nothing about 'Christians'.
If you can read and understand then do that. Otherwise seek the help of those who do with humility rather than with arrogance.
I will leave you with another passage and then Im done. Christ is here now giving an actual ecample of those who remove body parts to ensure that their entry into Gods Kingdom is secure.
But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:11-12 KJV)
You can put your own interpretation to suit your doctrine all you like but it cannot change what Christ said.
There are all kinds of eunuchs. [If you dont know what a eunuch is then google it.]
- some by birth
- some done by men
- some done by choice for the sake of entering into the Kingdom.
You are a stone headed person KJ as can be clearly seen in this thread alone. You do not deal with facts or answer issues clearly.
13 Jun 14
Originally posted by PudgenikOn health care, no one addresses the elephant in the room: the shortage of providers. It's easy to criticize governments and insurance companies, but until the shortage is addressed somehow, we will continue to have to make hard choices about who has priority on getting care.
Although saving this child may seem like the humanitarian thing to do, it does bring it's own problems. At what point do we start allowing government to totally control our lives and at what point do we say no.
In the "Obamacare Act" it states clearly that the health care is for viable people. Those who contribute to society. At what point will the US go ...[text shortened]... ncept, is it the right of the mob to control ones own personal beliefs. Even if they seem wrong?
13 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999My own interpretation, I've been asking for yours. Is that to much to ask
I have suggested nothing.
Christ said nothing about 'Christians'.
If you can read and understand then do that. Otherwise seek the help of those who do with humility rather than with arrogance.
I will leave you with another passage and then Im done. Christ is here now giving an actual ecample of those who remove body parts to ensure that their entry into ...[text shortened]... s can be clearly seen in this thread alone. You do not deal with facts or answer issues clearly.
for with you? Seriously, we are to be saving the lost, and with you who it
seems has so much understanding, care to share so that others may come
to God in the way God wants? Share your insight so we can understand
the vastness of your wisdom, and find our way as we should.
Kelly
13 Jun 14
That doctor deserves a lot of praise for sticking to the Hippocratic Oath,
that which regards ethical and moral stances in healthcare and treatment of patients.
One would hope JW's around the globe would re-evaluate their faith vs morality,
in light of such events as these.......... if only.
14 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI was just using the health care act as an example.
On health care, no one addresses the elephant in the room: the shortage of providers. It's easy to criticize governments and insurance companies, but until the shortage is addressed somehow, we will continue to have to make hard choices about who has priority on getting care.
Mob rule, as in the instance of this girl. Let us look at the other end of the spectrum. What if a man is in a coma, wouldn't it be better for him if we just pull the plug. What if at age 65, you need the help of an aid just for your daily living. Wouldn't it be the humanitarian thing to erase you. You obviously have lived to the fullness of your life, and now it is time to step down. (die)
In the faith of the J. W.'s they don't want that type of medicine. What of the Amish, Muslims, or any other religion that doesn't think like we do. Do we have the right to trash their faith and beliefs? "To save their children". And where will it stop?
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Originally posted by PudgenikYes we do have the right.
Do we have the right to trash their faith and beliefs? "To save their children". And where will it stop?
We have the right to speak out against the insanity and hatred of extremist fundamentalism, yes we have the right to speak out against religious dogma that endangers the lives of young people who are supposed to be in our care and yes we have the right contend for justice and truth.
No, the parents of a child do not under any circumstances have the right to withhold life saving proven medical care from an otherwise heathy child.
Your's and Kelly's supposed libertarian 'chin in the air' posturing, in reality amounts to nothing more than namby-pamby wishy-washy religious hanky waving, which if allowed to permeate the wider social mind-set would result in thousands of potential human catastrophes like the one in the OP.
Originally posted by 64squaresofpainOh dear, another epic failure of grotesque proportions, the Hippocratic oath is trumped by the right of self determination, any doctor will tell you that, in fact if a Doctor happens to be a Jehovah's witness and the person requests an intravenous blood transfusion then the doctor or surgeon is under duress to comply with their wishes. Please think about what you are typing prior to posting it just may save you from further embarrassment, but i doubt it.
That doctor deserves a lot of praise for sticking to the Hippocratic Oath,
that which regards ethical and moral stances in healthcare and treatment of patients.
One would hope JW's around the globe would re-evaluate their faith vs morality,
in light of such events as these.......... if only.
In the case of a minor of course, at least in the UK, parents have no jurisdiction over the use of blood in treatment and a consultants word is law. But its not the case for adults and the right of self determination is paramount.
Of course we find it rather hypocritical that we are being chastised for a religious stance when the religions of the system, Christians, Muslims and Hindus have killed far more people and far more children in savage acts of war, but hey thats haters for you. I don't think we shall be taking lessons in morality from them or you.