A life saved from the madness

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Kelly is not talking about his stance on his own beliefs though is he.

Not talking about my own beliefs though I am, uh okay!
I am talking about my beliefs, to sin or not to sin.
It is a simple point, in this life we make choices, you want to sin or not.
I will not be apart of causing someone else to sin by force, I respect their
right to liv ...[text shortened]... re God. I'm sure if you actually read about
sin you'd see it is something God frowns on.
Kelly[/b]

Yeah, you are making total sense. You're talking about sin and not sinning and freedom and captivity and blah blah blah...

I'm talking about a religious cult that preaches a doctrine which drives parents to let thier child die rather than contravene the prison thier mind is in. And YOU support their choice.

I was wrong about you being a decent bloke. Not only are you supporting the rights of this pernicious cult to foist this henious doctrine, you support the outcomes of it on it's members, but you lack the balls to directly say it - you hide behind posts like the one I'm responding to.

Not much respect I'm afraid. Lean on twhitehead for support, he thinks you are "perfectly reasonable".

Originally posted by twhitehead
A fairly big chunk of the thread [b]was about his own beliefs.

How you can find this position "perfectly reasonable" is either you revealling a side to your moral nature you have never revealed before or your are confused or you are trolling. I suspect that latter, it's a poor effort.
No, not trolling at all, nor am I confused. I have started another thread to discuss the matter "Believe vs morality" and you are welcome to weigh in.[/b]

No thanks, there is enough madness (sorry, perfect reasonableness" ) in this one.

I know we don't usually see eye-to-eye, but I have to say I'm very surprised at you in this instance.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree all that you said should be done.
The stance I have is if something I believe is sin has to take place to save
my life, I'd rather die.
Kelly

blimey, you are a hard individual to understand. you appear to be contradicting yourself.


you seem to now be saying that the parents in the scenarios i gave should be stopped by the state (in this case the state would be the doctor ignoring the parents and saving the child).

my understanding of your earlier stance was - you think if a parent feels it is a sin (regardless if you think it is a sin) then they should have the right to decide what happens to their child (in all medical scenarios).

one clear post, not speaking generalities, explaining when you think a childs rights should out weigh the parents religious beliefs could put a swift end to this debate. as at the moment (and im sure im not the only one) im no clearer in knowing what you think then when we began.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
blimey, you are a hard individual to understand. you appear to be contradicting yourself.


you seem to now be saying that the parents in the scenarios i gave should be stopped by the state (in this case the state would be the doctor ignoring the parents and saving the child).

my understanding of your earlier stance was - you think if a parent fee ...[text shortened]... nt (and im sure im not the only one) im no clearer in knowing what you think then when we began.

If you go back and look at everything I've said, I have been putting
sin against all actions we could take including saving my own life. It is very
clear for me. I would not push my own views upon someone else who also
may feel the same way I do that life is not as important as sinning against
God. What happens in this life is nothing compared to what is to come,
many of us who have a relationship with God I believe would agree with
me. There are more than a few it seems that would put their lives
above sinning against God, but both of us will stand before God and give
an account, so I'm not worried about disagreeing with each other, God will
sort it out, not my job.

You take away sin from any discussion I'm all in on doing everything that
we can to save lives.
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester
I know we don't usually see eye-to-eye, but I have to say I'm very surprised at you in this instance.

It is highly likely that you simply don't fully understand my stance on the matter. I did try to explain it a bit better in the other thread.
To summarize, I would want the law to step in in this case. However, I do not think the fact that the law should step in makes the belief in question any more likely to be based on rational thought or actual truth than a belief that does not require state intervention. You seemed to be claiming that your beliefs are superior because your beliefs to not violate any laws.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
blimey, you are a hard individual to understand. you appear to be contradicting yourself.


you seem to now be saying that the parents in the scenarios i gave should be stopped by the state (in this case the state would be the doctor ignoring the parents and saving the child).

my understanding of your earlier stance was - you think if a parent fee ...[text shortened]... nt (and im sure im not the only one) im no clearer in knowing what you think then when we began.

I missed part of your statement, I'll go back I owe you sorry!

Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]Sin leads to death


i think the thing that appears to be baffling a few of us on here, is you appear to be condoning the freedom of a parent to have control of life and death of a child based on the parents personal concept of sin. regardless if you (kellyjay) agree that its a real sin.

the example given of a jw. you do not agree that givi ...[text shortened]... ld all forms medication? (so no pain killers, inhalers, vaccines, stitches, surgery..and so on).[/b]

Sin leads to death, there is a death that is beyond what we see in this life.

I'm going to put trying to do right by God, and not sinning above life each
time. As I pointed out more than a few times, some things I think are sin
may not be for you, so just because I don't think it is a sin does not mean
it isn't for another. We are our own standards of right and wrong on some
things, and we all owe God what we know are sins by Him too.

So do not say, I may not think it is a "real sin" when looking at someone
else, for me it may not be, but for them, it is very real.

I believe a child should be given every chance at life, so I'm going to agree
to help everyone that needs it. I can only think of one thing off the top of
my head I'd refuse which I already shared with you.

Since sinning against God means that much to me who am I to tell
someone else what they think is a big deal they are just going to have to
buck up we are going to force them anyway?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sin leads to death, there is a death that is beyond what we see in this life.

I'm going to put trying to do right by God, and not sinning above life each
time. As I pointed out more than a few times, some things I think are sin
may not be for you, so just because I don't think it is a sin does not mean
it isn't for another. We are our own standards of ...[text shortened]... is a big deal they are just going to have to
buck up we are going to force them anyway?
Kelly

so, if say my god thinks its a sin not to stick red hot spikes in my children every tuesday - you would allow me to do it because "some things I think are sin
may not be for you, so just because I don't think it is a sin does not mean
it isn't for another. We are our own standards of right and wrong on some" and
So do not say, I may not think it is a "real sin" when looking at someone
else, for me it may not be, but for them, it is very real. correct?


im sure you wouldnt stand by and let me do that so....why? if it is a real sin for me not to do it and i really think my children will burn in hell if i dont do it.......why would you stop me???? maybe you wouldnt???

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so, if say my god thinks its a sin not to stick red hot spikes in my children every tuesday - you would allow me to do it because [b]"some things I think are sin
may not be for you, so just because I don't think it is a sin does not mean
it isn't for another. We are our own standards of right and wrong on some" and
So do not say, I may not th ...[text shortened]... children will burn in hell if i dont do it.......why would you stop me???? maybe you wouldnt???

If you ran into someone who believes in red hot spikes let me know we can
talk. As I pointed out to you and others here several times, no matter where
you draw the line someone will come up with something that is down right
evil, which I believe the red hot spikes would be. You'd have to show me
a real example of that, a fictional one, who cares what they do.

With respect to burning in Hell, no matter what we do we are bound to go
there without the salvation that God has provided. We are saved by Jesus
Christ not by our works or good deeds. The point of avoiding sin for me
has to do with following after Christ, we are to walk in love following His
Spirit. I try not to judge another's servant, and we will end up where we
will at the end of this life, no matter what doctors to for us along the way.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you ran into someone who believes in red hot spikes let me know we can
talk. As I pointed out to you and others here several times, no matter where
you draw the line someone will come up with something that is down right
evil, which I believe the red hot spikes would be. You'd have to show me
a real example of that, a fictional one, who cares what th ...[text shortened]... p where we
will at the end of this life, no matter what doctors to for us along the way.
Kelly

As I pointed out to you and others here several times, no matter where
you draw the line someone will come up with something that is down right
evil

how do you decide what is evil and what is not? if my religion states that putting spikes in children every tuesday will ensure they spend eternity in heaven then isnt that a good thing.

what makes the jw refusing blood acceptable and my putting spikes in not?

Originally posted by twhitehead
It is highly likely that you simply don't fully understand my stance on the matter.

Oh no you don't... I understand what you said perfectly.

Kelly is supporting the right of the parents to behave in a way that results in endangering the life of their child. The state intervened (you agree with this -noted) but Kelly does NOT agree with this, he is obsessed with protecting the conscience of the parents before their God and more rationally, protecting their right to freedom of control over their child's condition.

Your exact words about Kelly's position were "I think he is being perfectly reasonable". I'm not interested in whether Kelly's beliefs are more or less rational than mine, I'm interested in your claim that "he is being perfectly reasonable"

You have not justified how you hold this position at all.

Originally posted by divegeester
Despite the Jehovah's Witness alleged position (repeatedly stated in this forum by robbie carrobie) of blood transfusions being "a matter of personal conscience", the real experience of life inside the cult is somewhat different as the religious pressure by the governing body to conform to its pernicious doctrines continues to endanger lives. In this Sou ...[text shortened]... ://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/kwazulu-natal/jehovah-s-witness-girl-saved-by-court-1.1700022

Are we still discussing the OP at hand?

Are there any JWers who clap their hands that the girl was saved to life by the doctors despite her parents' will?
Are there any JWers who wanted the girl dead because transfusion is more dangerous?

Or are we unrepairable out of topic?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Are we still discussing the OP at hand?

Are there any JWers who clap their hands that the girl was saved to life by the doctors despite her parents' will?
Are there any JWers who wanted the girl dead because transfusion is more dangerous?

Or are we unrepairable out of topic?

Did you see anyone who wanted the child to die? I don't believe so!
Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]As I pointed out to you and others here several times, no matter where
you draw the line someone will come up with something that is down right
evil

how do you decide what is evil and what is not? if my religion states that putting spikes in children every tuesday will ensure they spend eternity in heaven then isnt that a good thing.

what makes the jw refusing blood acceptable and my putting spikes in not?[/b]

Show me the scripture in the Bible that suggests that, we can discuss that.
I don't believe mutilation is justifiable and is actually spoken against in
scripture.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Did you see anyone who wanted the child to die? I don't believe so!
Kelly

I read in the article:

“Dr Vaithilingum found herself in a difficult position when the parents refused the lifesaving treatment,” said Skelton.

and

After receiving the blood, her condition improved dramatically.

I don't know more about the case as it is written in the article. Do you know more about the case in question?

The parents refused the life saving procedure. The doctor saved the 10-years old girl.