11 Jun 14
Originally posted by FMFI guess that says a lot, you see nothing wrong with lying.
[b]A similar position faced Jehovah's witnesses in the Nazi concentration camps, they could simply sign a piece of paper and relinquish their faith and gain freedom, thousands went to their death rather than compromise, why do you think that is? Its for the same reason, to do so would be a betrayal of their convictions and principles.
Signing a piece of ...[text shortened]... nature? I see nothing wrong with lying to someone who is threatening to kill you or your family.[/b]
Kelly
Originally posted by FMFyour ignorance knows no bounds, it called for a relinquishment of their faith and their convictions. If you knew anything about it, you would know that, please cast your dark shadow upon some other poor unfortunate victim, your darkness cannot overcome what has transpired here.
[b]A similar position faced Jehovah's witnesses in the Nazi concentration camps, they could simply sign a piece of paper and relinquish their faith and gain freedom, thousands went to their death rather than compromise, why do you think that is? Its for the same reason, to do so would be a betrayal of their convictions and principles.
Signing a piece of ...[text shortened]... nature? I see nothing wrong with lying to someone who is threatening to kill you or your family.[/b]
Attempts were made, with every possible and impossible means, to force them to sign a sworn statement, declaring that they no longer want to be Witnesses, that they will never again resume contact and association with the Witnesses, and that they will no longer read any literature from the Witnesses
...
Those who do not capitulate and remain unwavering in their faith... were assigned to a punishment company. In the opinion of the SS, the Witnesses were the worst traitors, incorrigible, and the scum of humankind. Even prisoners were incited to threaten recalcitrant Witnesses, in order to instill fear from every possible side.
(Winkler, 1938, I March, p. 13; English quote in Hesse, 2001, p.157)
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11 Jun 14
Originally posted by KellyJayHypothetical:
I guess that says a lot, you see nothing wrong with lying.
Kelly
You are a Christian German in the late 1930's early 1940's.
You have Jews hidden in a secret basement.
The SS comes to your door and asks you if you have any Jewish people on the property.
You can:
A) Lie to them, and attempt to keep the Jewish people you are protecting from being rounded
up and taken to concentration camps and/or death camps.
B) Refuse to answer the question, get arrested/tortured and have your house searched.
C) Tell them that yes you have a bunch of Jew's in the basement and you would be happy
to show the SS officer where they are hiding.
Do try to explain how there is something wrong with lying in the above scenario.
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIs your Christian faith something so shallow and disposable that simply writing something on a piece of paper could "relinquish" it?
your ignorance knows no bounds, it called for a relinquishment of their faith and their convictions. If you knew anything about it, you would know that, please cast your dark shadow upon some other poor unfortunate victim, your darkness cannot overcome what has transpired here.
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by FMFAs i stated, please cast your dark shadow upon some other poor unfortunate victim of your ignorance. One might have asked Vivia Perpetua the same question, is your faith so shallow that a small piece of incense can relinquish it.
Is your Christian faith something so shallow and disposable that simply writing something on a piece of paper could "relinquish" it?
Originally posted by googlefudgethis is not the same thing, Here you are being asked to take responsibility for the lives of other people which has different implications than when you are solely concerned with that of your own.
Hypothetical:
You are a Christian German in the late 1930's early 1940's.
You have Jews hidden in a secret basement.
The SS comes to your door and asks you if you have any Jewish people on the property.
You can:
A) Lie to them, and attempt to keep the Jewish people you are protecting from being rounded
up and taken to concentration camps ...[text shortened]... hiding.
Do try to explain how there is something wrong with lying in the above scenario.
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am responding to your statement about JWs dying in concentration camps. You have attached some sort of meaning to them refusing to lie to Nazis. I'd say dying because you did not want to lie to a murderer would be an unnecessary and meaningless death, other than whatever sense of pride it gave to the person getting murdered ~ that sense of righteousness may well have had 'meaning' for the victim. But I would call it meaningless.
As i stated, please cast your dark shadow upon some other poor unfortunate victim of your ignorance.
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow many people who became victims of the Holocaust could have been saved, sheltered, hidden or helped to escape or leave the country by these "thousands [who] went to their death" because they didn't want to lie to a Nazi?
this is not the same thing, Here you are being asked to take responsibility for the lives of other people which has different implications than when you are solely concerned with that of your own.
Originally posted by FMFthis is the second time you have responded to me, please spare me, i really have nothing to say to you.
I am responding to your statement about JWs dying in concentration camps. You have attached some sort of meaning to them refusing to lie to Nazis. I'd say dying because you did not want to lie to a murderer would be an unnecessary and meaningless death, other than whatever sense of pride it gave to the person getting murdered ~ that sense of righteousness may well have had 'meaning' for the victim. But I would call it meaningless.
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by FMFGee wait till i check me records 🙄
How many people who became victims of the Holocaust could have been saved, sheltered, hidden or helped to escape or leave the country by these "thousands [who] went to their death" because they didn't want to lie to a Nazi?
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd among those "convictions and principles" is what? ...always be honest in your dealings with people who run Nazi concentration camps?
A similar position faced Jehovah's witnesses in the Nazi concentration camps, they could simply sign a piece of paper and relinquish their faith and gain freedom, thousands went to their death rather than compromise, why do you think that is? Its for the same reason, to do so would be a betrayal of their convictions and principles.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMore genuine "convictions and principles", as well as courage and compassion ~ and perhaps self-sacrifice ~ were exhibited by those who did whatever they could to help others to survive the Nazi Holocaust.
Gee wait till i check me records 🙄
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11 Jun 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieKelly did not specify any context in his statement, and just spoke of lying in general.
this is not the same thing, Here you are bing asked to take responsibility for the lives of other people which has different implications than when you are solely concerned with that of your own.
However I can create a scenario to cover your issue.
Hypothetical 2:
You are Jewish.
You are in a bank that gets held up by a gunman who is a neo-nazi white supremacist
and he has just demonstrated that he will kill anyone who will not write down that
they are not-Jewish and sign their name on a piece of paper. [demonstrate by killing
the first person who refused]
It's your turn.
You can:
A) Lie, and write that you are not Jewish on the piece of paper. Sparing any and all
who love and care about you the anguish of your untimely death... plus you get to keep
living.
B) Tell the truth or refuse to answer and get shot in the head.
Now try to explain in a coherent and sensible fashion why someone shouldn't simply lie and
avoid getting killed.
11 Jun 14
Originally posted by googlefudgeSorry I cannot speak on behalf of someone who is Jewish, it has no real relevance to me.
Kelly did not specify any context in his statement, and just spoke of lying in general.
However I can create a scenario to cover your issue.
Hypothetical 2:
You are Jewish.
You are in a bank that gets held up by a gunman who is a neo-nazi white supremacist
and he has just demonstrated that he will kill anyone who will not write down that
...[text shortened]... in a coherent and sensible fashion why someone shouldn't simply lie and
avoid getting killed.