A life saved from the madness

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
we could ask Vivia Perpetua the same question

But I thought she died.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Attempts were made, with every possible and impossible means, to force them to sign a sworn statement, declaring that they no longer want to be Witnesses, that they will never again resume contact and association with the Witnesses, and that they will no longer read any literature from the Witnesses

They should have just signed it and then committed themselves to saving as many people as possible from the Nazis.

Originally posted by FMF
Of course there's nothing wrong with lying to someone threatening to kill you or your family.

I was under the assumption that you were a Christian like me at one time?
If that was true, you would have known that for those of us who love their
lives more than God are not worthy of God. It seems that what you had
was never at that level, which I suppose I should have known since you
walked away from it.
Kelly

Originally posted by googlefudge
Hypothetical:

You are a Christian German in the late 1930's early 1940's.

You have Jews hidden in a secret basement.

The SS comes to your door and asks you if you have any Jewish people on the property.

You can:

A) Lie to them, and attempt to keep the Jewish people you are protecting from being rounded
up and taken to concentration camps ...[text shortened]... hiding.



Do try to explain how there is something wrong with lying in the above scenario.

That is a very hard one for me. To take this out of the hypothetical I would
suggest you read the "Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom, she actually lived
that and wrote about. Some of her family told the truth, some lied, and she
wrote about what happen to each of them.

The issue I had with the discussion was about denying Christ to live. I would
not lie about that, and I would hope that no matter what I would never
deny Him for anything in this world.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If that was true, you would have known that for those of us who love their
lives more than God are not worthy of God.

More likely, he considers lying to save your life not to be a violation of love for God.
Is your issue with lying in general, or with lying about your beliefs?
Is lying to save your ego OK? The sort of lying we see all the time on this forum.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you have failed to answer the question

I answered it alright. Did you understand the answer?

I debate the girl, who didn't have her own right to decide about her life. Her parents wanted her dead for the sake of religion. The doctor however saved her, against her parents will. Who are the heroes in this story? Her parents? (no) Or the doctors? (yes).

I don't debate a general view about religion and free will. Then I go off-topic. This thread is not about the general case. This thread is about the girl.

And again I say: Religion kills.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The issue I had with the discussion was about denying Christ to live. I would not lie about that, and I would hope that no matter what I would never
deny Him for anything in this world.

Like I said, dying ~ or letting your family die ~ because you did not want to lie to a murderer would be an unnecessary and meaningless death. The piece of paper on which the extorted signature was written would also be meaningless. Do you seriously think it would constitute a "denial" of your beliefs?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I answered it alright. Did you understand the answer?

I debate the girl, who didn't have her own right to decide about her life. Her parents wanted her dead for the sake of religion. The doctor however saved her, against her parents will. Who are the heroes in this story? Her parents? (no) Or the doctors? (yes).

I don't debate a general view about r ...[text shortened]... s not about the general case. This thread is about the girl.

And again I say: Religion kills.

Here is something for you to understand and seeing that you could not bring yourself to acknowledge it, i shall tell you, some people are prepared to die for principles that they believe in making the assertion that life is more precious than religion quite erroneous, for to some people, its not, as I have ably demonstrated with reference. Now you can accept the FACT or dismiss it, either way, its true.

and for the record 21 small children in the UK were given contaminated feed

Across nine hospitals, 21 babies have been struck down with blood poisoning brought on by an infection “strongly linked” to an intravenous fluid supplied by London-based pharmaceutical firm ITH Pharma.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/health/480826/Poisoned-baby-grieving-father-fears-for-other-children-St-Thomas-Hosptial

was it religion or medicine which killed Yousef Al-Kharboush

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...some people are prepared to die for principles that they believe in making the assertion that life is more precious than religion quite erroneous...

Is one of these "principles" 'always be honest in your dealings with mass murderers'?

Originally posted by divegeester
Despite the Jehovah's Witness alleged position (repeatedly stated in this forum by robbie carrobie) of blood transfusions being "a matter of personal conscience", the real experience of life inside the cult is somewhat different as the religious pressure by the governing body to conform to its pernicious doctrines continues to endanger lives. In this Sou ...[text shortened]... ://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/kwazulu-natal/jehovah-s-witness-girl-saved-by-court-1.1700022

It's okay to give women's rights the freedom to murder their unborn child. But then it's not okay to not give their child a blood transfusion, and then be forced to have to? What happened to women's rights here?

Originally posted by FMF
Like I said, dying ~ or letting your family die ~ because you did not want to lie to a murderer would be an unnecessary and meaningless death. The piece of paper on which the extorted signature was written would also be meaningless. Do you seriously think it would constitute a "denial" of your beliefs?

Like I said, I would not deny Him for my life since He gave His life for me,
and He gave His life for my family too, so I hope my family feels the same
way. If you have nothing in your life you feel is more important than your
life, than you have nothing to compare that too.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Like I said, I would not deny Him for my life since He gave His life for me,
and He gave His life for my family too, so I hope my family feels the same
way. If you have nothing in your life you feel is more important than your
life, than you have nothing to compare that too.

What exactly is achieved by telling a murderer 'the truth', and in so doing getting yourself murdered, and why would your God figure ~ who you claim knows your every thought ~ require your death in these circumstances?

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you have nothing in your life you feel is more important than your
life, than you have nothing to compare that too.

I would say that I feel the lives of my children and my wife are more important to me than my own. Would you lie about your religion (to somebody who broke into your house with the intent to murder) in order to save your wife and children?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I was under the assumption that you were a Christian like me at one time? If that was true, you would have known that for those of us who love their lives more than God are not worthy of God.

At no point in my Christian years would I have had a moment's hesitation lying about my faith to a murderer or rapist in order to stop a violent crime against me or anyone else. Saying to a person threatening to kill me [or anyone else] "I don't believe in God" in order to prevent the murder would not have actually meant that I didn't believe in God.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Here is something for you to understand and seeing that you could not bring yourself to acknowledge it, i shall tell you, some people are prepared to die for principles that they believe in making the assertion that life is more precious than religion quite erroneous, for to some people, its not, as I have ably demonstrated with reference. Now you c ...[text shortened]... ther-children-St-Thomas-Hosptial

was it religion or medicine which killed Yousef Al-Kharboush

Okay, thanks for the information.

However, has this anything to do with the girl presented in the OP in the article link?
No? Then why do you think it is relevant?

To get back on-topic... On-topic it is.

You think it is okay to let a girl die because of the parents religion? I don't.
You think that the doctors did wrong by saving the girl back to life? I don't.
You think that one persons religion has precedence over another persons life? I don't.

If the girl wanted to die because of her religion, then it is her choice. But this girl didn't have the choice.

And again I repeat: Religion kills. And you think it's alright. I don't.