22 Nov 14
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterI've come to realise that being confident of my faith in God is not the same as knowing about God I.e. Doctrine and as you term it here "mechanics".
I've come to realise that being confident of my faith in God is not the same as knowing about God I.e. Doctrine and as you term it here "mechanics".
Many Christians here claim to know with absolute certainty that mechanic X is definite and therefore doctrine Y follows. The extreme outcome of this thinking is cultism and statements such as "we are the sole holders of God's truth on earth".
I don't equate doctrine with mechanics or assume there is a link between the two (if that's what you meant). I used the word 'mechanics' here because it was the only word I could think of that applied to the question being asked. What God wants us know (doctrine) and the question of how does he do it (mechanics) are two different things.
Originally posted by lemon limeI don't agree; the what and the how are always linked. Even in everyday language we talk about action speaking louder than words. for example god may "wants us to know" that he is vengeful and yet just. The "how he does it" is extremely important don't you think? Look at the doctrine of eternal suffering, eternal hell is a "mechanic" has been inextricably linked to the doctrine. It doesn't mean it is correct, as you know I don't think they are, it just means one is a practical out-working of the other.
What God wants us know (doctrine) and the question of how does he do it (mechanics) are two different things.
Originally posted by divegeesterEphesians 4:10-16 (New American Standard Bible) "10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [a]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [b]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [c]which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 [d]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [e]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [f]speaking the truth in love, [g]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [h]by what every joint supplies, according to the [i]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."
I've come to realise that being confident of my faith in God is not the same as knowing about God I.e. Doctrine and as you term it here "mechanics".
Many Christians here claim to know with absolute certainty that mechanic X is definite and therefore doctrine Y follows. The extreme outcome of this thinking is cultism and statements such as "we are the sole holders of God's truth on earth".
"Footnotes: a.Ephesians 4:12 Or holy ones; b.Ephesians 4:13 Or true knowledge; c.Ephesians 4:13 Lit of the fullness; d.Ephesians 4:14 Lit So that we will no longer be; e.Ephesians 4:14 Lit with regard to the scheming of deceit; f.Ephesians 4:15 Or holding to or being truthful in; g.Ephesians 4:15 Or let us grow up; h.Ephesians 4:16 Lit through every joint of the supply; i.Ephesians 4:16 Lit working in measure."
Following personal faith in Christ [the revealed son of God as opposed to mere acknowledgment of the existence of God the father] His plan for all believers is to learn who Christ is and what he has accomplished on behalf of the human race so that we may begin to share His thinking. Only through learning Bible doctrine [which is the mind of Christ] will the absolute truth of the Word of God become the daily measure of our thinking, conscience, attitude and behavior toward others. Only as believers mature will they fulfill their destines which is to realize happiness and contentment; and to glorify God in time.
22 Nov 14
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Only through learning Bible doctrine [which is the mind of Christ] will the absolute truth of the Word of God become the daily measure of our thinking, conscience, attitude and behavior toward others."
Ephesians 4:10-16 (New American Standard Bible) "10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [a]saints for the work of service, to the building ...[text shortened]... ulfill their destines which is to realize happiness and contentment; and to glorify God in time.
Philippians 2:1-8
If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.
[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhat are you trying to say here?
Ephesians 4:10-16 (New American Standard Bible) "10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [a]saints for the work of service, to the building ...[text shortened]... ulfill their destines which is to realize happiness and contentment; and to glorify God in time.
Originally posted by josephwAn excellent companion passage, Joe. As always thanks for being here and making a qualitative difference in this forum.
[b]"Only through learning Bible doctrine [which is the mind of Christ] will the absolute truth of the Word of God become the daily measure of our thinking, conscience, attitude and behavior toward others."
Philippians 2:1-8
If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and me ...[text shortened]... shion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.[/b]
22 Nov 14
Originally posted by divegeesterSimply providing scripture applicable to the number one priority in our lives: learning bible doctrine, the spiritual food God's made available to our volitions and by which we grow from infancy at salvation to maturity in acquiring the mind of Christ.
What are you trying to say here?
23 Nov 14
Originally posted by divegeesterYou've put on your spiritual armor to do battle with a concept I feel is just another windmill.
I'm coming to a realisation that most of my Christian colleagues here in this forum believe I should be burnt in hell for not believing in eternal suffering, you included. Those who disagree lack the courage to speak out against it. Some, like you, just lack the courage to speak out, preferring instead warm comfort of the passive aggressive jab.
My position is similar to yours and yet I find that there are far more spiritual matters to get worked up about than just this.
I don't "lack the courage to speak out". I get shouted down regularly by people who think my ideas are too fanciful to entertain. And nevermind the problems associated with being a woman and speaking my mind. This issue is simply not high on my list of things to "speak out" against. Much higher on my list is fundamentalists who are not only embarrassing the rest of us regularly but who turn everyday thinking people away from our religion with their ancient, literalist ideas about creation.
23 Nov 14
Originally posted by FMFIs there any joy in your life at all?
He's offering you insincere and sanctimonious duckspeak because he doesn't have any genuine insights or fellowship to offer.
If so, I can't say I see any evidence of it. You regularly come here and browbeat well-meaning people until you get your daily dose of whatever it is you get out of being mean and snippy to people.
23 Nov 14
Originally posted by lemon limeI read this reply yesterday and didn't see how it had answered the question, but after reflection I think that its about as coherent an answer to the question as is possible.
Okay, I get it now. You're wondering what the mechanics are... how is God able to do this. I frankly don't know. If you were asking how things work here I might have an answer. But I can only guess (and would probably be wrong) what it means to have a new and incorruptible body, or how I would be able to remember anything without suffering the sort of suf ...[text shortened]... s not limited by his creation, but I am limited because I'm only a part of that creation.
There was a science fiction author called Iain M. Banks who wrote a bunch of novels set within a space faring civilization called the Culture. In them he had a sort of technological heaven, except that entry to what he called the irreal was at the civilizational level, rather than individual - he explored the concept more deeply in the last of his novels where a civilization allied to the Culture decided to sublime (go into the irreal). To try to get across how more real than reality the irreal is he had it have 17 different kinds of weather - where rain, snow, wind and so on is one kind of weather. As a narrative device he made it necessary to have Minds (very powerful A.I.s) to guide the humans (or whatever species) while entering the irreal as it is just too much for a mere human to cope with; this was to prevent primitive societies from entering the irreal, and a way of explaining why the universe isn't full of ultra-powerful civilizations who are around for billions of years. The idea was that on entering it you'd sort of grow exponentially, so anyone who didn't enter the irreal with the rest of their civilization would be permanently left behind; they could never catch up even if they did enter the irreal afterwards. After entering the irreal the concerns of this universe, including anyone left behind, stopped mattering.
23 Nov 14
Originally posted by SuzianneI think divegeester is right to press this issue of torture-for-eternity because it is anathema to his concept of a loving God, because he does not recognize its scriptural justification, and because, as far as I can make out, he believes ~ as I do ~ that this notion of torture-for-eternity for non-believers is the ugliest and most depraved notion that mankind has ever conjured up from the darkest recesses of its imagination. These are absolutely fundamental objections to the entire concept of God as propagated by certain Christians, and such objections (and their discussion) cannot be just brushed off with bromide comments about people who ought not "get worked up about" them.
You've put on your spiritual armor to do battle with a concept I feel is just another windmill. My position is similar to yours and yet I find that there are far more spiritual matters to get worked up about than just this.
23 Nov 14
Originally posted by SuzianneWell, here you are, with this rather typical comment of yours, getting your own daily dose of whatever it is you personally get out of being mean and snippy to certain people.
If [there is any joy in your life], I can't say I see any evidence of it. You regularly come here and browbeat well-meaning people until you get your daily dose of whatever it is you get out of being mean and snippy to people.
Meanwhile, I am happy to discuss things like salvation, damnation, eternal torture, allegories in the Bible, psychology, morality, the inconsistency, incoherence or contradictions of some people's beliefs as expressed here, along with the human condition as we all demonstrate it, my own lost faith, spiritual paths other than the Christian one, and many other topics besides...
...and while I get my "daily dose" of engaging people in this community on these topics, almost all of your scornful comments directed at me have just the same topic over and over again: me.