A question of honesty

Originally posted by lemon lime
As much as it distresses me to think that anyone I love might end up in hell, I can't fault God for judging us as individuals rather than as a group.

So how is it that this "distress" does not exist in "heaven"? Would you still be essentially you if this "distress" over the fate of loved ones were extinguished by fear whilst in "heaven"?

Originally posted by lemon lime
What you see as a contradiction is due to two factors:

You are presuming that someone you love should be there with you, or you would suffer anguish over the knowledge that she is in hell.

First, nowhere in the Bible is heaven described as a place of torment. So the presumption of anguish over a loved one not being there with you is simply th ...[text shortened]... ve might end up in hell, I can't fault God for judging us as individuals rather than as a group.

No, I'm not presuming that my wife should be in Heaven with me. I'm granting you that God could save one person and damn his or her spouse. You're right, though, that I am presuming that I would suffer anguish over the knowledge that my wife was in torment in Hell.

So, as I already said above, you're claiming I will not suffer anguish in Heaven even if my wife were tormented in Hell, because there simply is no suffering anguish in Heaven.

But my question is: How does God make it the case that I don't suffer anguish in Heaven over the knowledge that my wife is tormented in Hell? I've asked this three times, and you haven't answered.

Again, how does God make it so I don't suffer anguish in Heaven over the torment of my wife in Hell?

I've even given you some possible answers. God could remove my knowledge of the fate of my wife. God could change my psychology so I no longer suffer anguish at my wife's torment. I'm sure there are other possibilities.

So, how does this actually work? On Earth, I suffer anguish when my wife in tormented. In Heaven, according to you, I would not. So there must be some change in me that accounts for the difference. What is the change? Please answer this question. I'm not sure how many more ways I can ask it.

Originally posted by lemon lime
You are presuming that someone you love should be there with you, or you would suffer anguish over the knowledge that she is in hell.

I don't think bbar's point is based so much on the assumption that his wife should be in "heaven". Instead, he is making the understandable assumption that if you are to remain essentially the individual unique person that you are and somehow NOT suffer anguish over the knowledge that one's spouse is being tortured elsewhere, then these feelings cannot simply be eradicated. If I have misunderstood bbar, I am sure he will set it straight.

Originally posted by FMF
So how is it that this "distress" does not exist in "heaven"? Would you still be essentially you if this "distress" over the fate of loved ones were extinguished by fear whilst in "heaven"?

Were you taught heaven is a place of anguish and torment? Did the Catholic church teach you there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven? Did you miss the part where God will wipe every tear from your eye? What were you doing as a Christian (for nearly 30 years) that could cause you to become ignorant of what you claimed to believe?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Were you taught heaven is a place of anguish and torment? Did the Catholic church teach you there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven? Did you miss the part where God will wipe every tear from your eye? What were you doing as a Christian (for nearly 30 years) that could cause you to be ignorant of your own faith?

Did you not read my post to you on this on the previous page?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Were you taught heaven is a place of anguish and torment? Did the Catholic church teach you there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven? Did you miss the part where God will wipe every tear from your eye? What were you doing as a Christian (for nearly 30 years) that could cause you to become ignorant of what you claimed to believe?

This is not an answer to the specific question you have been asked. How is the compassion and loyalty for loved ones, that in great part defined who you were during your lifetime, extinguished in "heaven"?

Originally posted by FMF
This is not an answer to the specific question you have been asked. How is the compassion and loyalty for loved ones, that in great part defined who you were during your lifetime, extinguished in "heaven"?

Right? Sheesh. If LL doesn't know, or hasn't thought it through, he could just say so. There's no shame in admitting you don't know something.

Originally posted by lemon lime
What were you doing as a Christian (for nearly 30 years) that could cause you to become ignorant of what you claimed to believe?

In so far as I am ignorant of exactly what you believe about the morality and psychology of somehow not feeling anguish for the fate of loved ones, why don't you just explain it so that I can understand your view?

Originally posted by bbarr
No, I'm not presuming that my wife should be in Heaven with me. I'm granting you that God could save one person and damn his or her spouse. You're right, though, that I am presuming that I would suffer anguish over the knowledge that my wife was in torment in Hell.

So, as I already said above, you're claiming I will not suffer anguish in Heaven eve ...[text shortened]... the change? [b]Please answer this question. I'm not sure how many more ways I can ask it.[/b]

The only possible conclusion in my mind where a wife is condemned to Hell and the husband cannot accept the anguish, despite otherwise being eligible for Heaven, is that the Husband would be condemned to Hell as well - for not letting go. This makes the whole Heaven/Hell thing incoherent in my mind.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by DeepThought in reply to divegeester

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the [b]false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

That's sounding like a yes to me. [DT, please consider the eternal issues in t ...[text shortened]... ents interjected in brackets. Italics mine. Please see: Thread 161456 Thanks. -Bob[/b]

I think I've mentioned this before. I was baptised a Presbytearian, my parents tend to go to the nearest Church, which where I was brought up was the Church of England place across the road, it was at the low church end of English Anglicanism. I'm now an agnostic. Unitarianism is logical to me, which is a different statement to I think it's correct. I can't believe that if God does exist he'd be overly worried about whether one stands up or sits down to pray, and I don't think he'd keep out people for not quite getting his nature right - every Church service I've been to involved a statement somewhere about "mystery that passes all understanding". If I were to suddenly start believing I'd be an Anglican, if that answers your question.

Originally posted by bbarr
No, I'm not presuming that my wife should be in Heaven with me. I'm granting you that God could save one person and damn his or her spouse. You're right, though, that I am presuming that I would suffer anguish over the knowledge that my wife was in torment in Hell.

So, as I already said above, you're claiming I will not suffer anguish in Heaven eve ...[text shortened]... the change? [b]Please answer this question. I'm not sure how many more ways I can ask it.[/b]

Okay, I get it now. You're wondering what the mechanics are... how is God able to do this. I frankly don't know. If you were asking how things work here I might have an answer. But I can only guess (and would probably be wrong) what it means to have a new and incorruptible body, or how I would be able to remember anything without suffering the sort of suffering or anguish I'm subject to here in this present body.

And you've given a possible answer. The most likely possible answer I can think of is arriving in heaven would be like waking up from a dream. A dream (any dream) can seem very real until we wake up from it and realize where we are. But understanding what waking up from a dream means when we get to heaven requires a radical shift in how we normally understand what it means to wake up from a dream. After a moment, after waking up from a dream, the dream seems to fade away and our perception of reality takes over... and this is what I think we might experience after dying. For some it will be like waking up from a nightmare. And for some, it will be like waking up from a pleasant dream and then realize where they are isn't so pleasant.

It finally dawned on me (after wondering about this) that heaven isn't some wispy place where everyone and everything seems to be ghost-like and translucent, but rather it will have more substance. More of a substantial reality than the one I'm presently living in... in part because nothing decays or dies there. No disappointments, no pain or sorrow, none of the bad things we've come to accept here and accept as our reality. And because we've accepted this reality for what it is, it's probably hard to imagine any other reality where those things don't exist.

But I believe your main concern was how is God able to do this, and again all I can say is I don't know... God is not limited by his creation, but I am limited because I'm only a part of that creation.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Okay, I get it now. You're wondering what the mechanics are... how is God able to do this. I frankly don't know. If you were asking how things work here I might have an answer. But I can only guess (and would probably be wrong) what it means to have a new and incorruptible body, or how I would be able to remember anything without suffering the sort of suf ...[text shortened]... ty for what it is, it's probably hard to image any other reality where those things don't exist.

That's a fair and honest reply, and I appreciate it. I'm going to think about that for a bit and will probably have some more questions. Thanks.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Okay, I get it now. You're wondering what the mechanics are... how is God able to do this. I frankly don't know. If you were asking how things work here I might have an answer. [...text shortened...] And because we've accepted this reality for what it is, it's probably hard to image any other reality where those things don't exist.

Thumbs up. This kind of thing is much more effective than the dreary ad hominem mode you like to slip into. This is an answer from you that is worth reading and considering.

Originally posted by FMF
Thumbs up. This kind of thing is much more effective than the dreary ad hominem mode you like to slip into. This is an answer from you that is worth reading and considering.

Okay, and I'm sorry if I initially misunderstood anyone here. I've edited my answer so that it might make a bit more sense... this is why I edit a lot, because I'm never entirely satisfied with anything I say.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Okay, I get it now. You're wondering what the mechanics are... how is God able to do this. I frankly don't know. If you were asking how things work here I might have an answer. But I can only guess (and would probably be wrong) what it means to have a new and incorruptible body, or how I would be able to remember anything without suffering the sort of suf ...[text shortened]... s not limited by his creation, but I am limited because I'm only a part of that creation.

I've come to realise that being confident of my faith in God is not the same as knowing about God I.e. Doctrine and as you term it here "mechanics".

Many Christians here claim to know with absolute certainty that mechanic X is definite and therefore doctrine Y follows. The extreme outcome of this thinking is cultism and statements such as "we are the sole holders of God's truth on earth".