A request to Dasa and his several detractors

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
OK.I respect your belief. But let me just say Hindu spiritual thought has nothing to with Evolution real or false--as you term it.

Sure thanks. I know that evolution and hinduism has nothing in common, i was just indicating from my point of view it is false just like evolution. I totally respect your believe too, even more cause of the fact that you've seen that Dasa is just doing it all wrong.

Originally posted by bbarr
When I was young my mother discipled herself to Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, a guru in the Sant Mat tradition, from the Radha Soami Satsang. We visited him in Beas, for darshan. My most salient memory is that her guru was very calm and kind, with a warm smile, and sat still for long periods of time. I'm sure there are very important differences between the Sant M ...[text shortened]... ill I continue to have any desires at all? Will I still be a good friend, partner, lover?

Oh, my “inner Lin-Chi” stirs—

“I tell you that there is no Dharma to be found outside. But students don’t understand my and immediately start looking inward for some explanation, sitting by the wall in meditation, pressing their tongues against the roof of their mouths, absolutely still, never moving, supposing this to be the Dharma of the buddhas taught by the patriarchs. What a mistake!”

—From The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-Chi: A Translation of the Lin-Chi LIu, by Burton Watson.

Or, from the Hsin-Hsin Ming of Seng-T’san, the third Zen patriarch (translated by Richard B. Clarke):

“If you want to move in the one Way [Tao]
do not dislike the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to embrace them fully
is identical with true enlightenment.”

And—

“Deny the reality of things
and you miss their reality;
assert the emptiness of things
and you miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it
the further you wander from the truth. ..
“but to pursue appearances or ‘enlightenment’ is to miss the source.
To awaken for even a moment
is to go beyond appearance and emptiness.”

NOTE: I have removed some capitalization of words from the original, which I think just muddy the Zen waters.

______________________________________________________
What could it be that you want to feel different? When maya is also bodhi? Talk philosophy, talk poetry, scratch your butt, fall down on it, forget (to borrow from Ram Das) “to remember to remember”; you rest in clear-mind without a thought, the breeze tickles your nose; you argue, you love, you are calm, you are frenzied—all this is just tathata.

Lin-Chi again: “The moment that you ask such a question you show that differentiation has already taken place and that inherent nature and its manifestations have gone their separate ways.”

—There is no doubt in my mind that you asked the question, however, to a different purpose. But, to continue—

“There is the dependent condition called bodhi, the dependent condition called nirvana, the dependent condition of emancipation, the dependent condition of body, the dependent condition of environment and wisdom, the dependent condition of bodhisattva, the dependent condition of Buddha. [/i]You live in a land of changing dependent conditions—what is it you are looking for?![/i] … Bodhi has no fixed abode. That’s why there’s nothing to take hold of!”

And I would add: what/who do you think is “looking”? To risk misusing technical terms: the whole affair is reflexive/recursive down to the bone. Tathata includes you wondering about tathata that includes you wondering about…and you are simply manifestation of that very tathata, that we could say (metaphorically) is wondering—you!

When what you’re looking with
is what you’re looking for
and what is “you-looking”—

How will you find “it”?

____________________________________________

Here is a good Zen mantra:

Boom!

Said in any voice (silently or aloud) that is you at the moment (e.g., fervently, affirmatively, whispering, questioning, whatever).

That boom! is just tathata; tathata is just that boom! booming the “ten thousand things”. You might as well just embrace that boom!, since that’s who you are, booming.

But you, bbarr, already know this (which is why a lot of the “yous” above are just general “yous” ). So just—

Booooom!

[And that, baby, is also darshan. Thank you for stirring me “to remember to remember”!]

Originally posted by vistesd
Oh, my “inner Lin-Chi” stirs—

“I tell you that there is no Dharma to be found outside. But students don’t understand my and immediately start looking inward for some explanation, sitting by the wall in meditation, pressing their tongues against the roof of their mouths, absolutely still, never moving, supposing this to be the Dharma of the buddhas taught ...[text shortened]...
[And that, baby, is also darshan. Thank you for stirring me “to remember to remember”!]

Edit: “I tell you that there is no Dharma to be found outside."


Once upon a time a man hated his own traces and his very shadow. Whenever he was seeing his shadow and his traces, he was running away as fast as he could, but his shadow was always catching him up and his traces were just a step behind him. Finally, exhausted he died
😵

Originally posted by bbarr
When I was young my mother discipled herself to Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, a guru in the Sant Mat tradition, from the Radha Soami Satsang. We visited him in Beas, for darshan. My most salient memory is that her guru was very calm and kind, with a warm smile, and sat still for long periods of time. I'm sure there are very important differences between the Sant M ill I continue to have any desires at all? Will I still be a good friend, partner, lover?

A good question and a sincere question....thanks.

You are asking what the honey taste like without tasting the honey yourself.

And the cliché answer is - you must dive into the honey pot.

However advancing in spirituality is equal to advancing in transcendental knowledge until loving sentiment has developed.

Loving God is not cheap and requires devotion to spiritual practice and gaining this transcendental knowledge.

Transcendental knowledge will remove ignorance and without removing ignorance one cannot love God - because God is the Absolute Truth and to remain ignorant is to be in conflict with God being that Truth.

A sure sign of advancing towards love of God is that without rules of any kind you will naturally become disinterested in everything material - and activities dedicated to chasing sense pleasure actually become distasteful and unnecessary.

When one is not entangled in material activities - they automatically suffer less.

In the beginning there are rules to restrict you in your undesirable material activities - but when you are truly advancing there is no need for rules at all -because you actually develop a natural aversion to all undesirable material activities as you become attached to Godly activities and Godly thinking.

There is a Buddhist say that before enlightment chop wood - and after enlightment chop wood.

What does this mean?

It means the activity can remain but the consciousness changes.

In Vedic teachings it is taught that everyone must work but the consciousness must be raised to the transcendental platform whilst working.

That consciousness is God consciousness which encompasses truth of being.

What is the truth of your being?

It is that you are an eternal indestructible spiritual being - and you have nothing at all to do with this temporary material world of birth, disease, old age, suffering and death- and that you are the eternal friend of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Krsna) - and you do not belong in this material world - but your true home is in the eternal spiritual world of bliss and knowledge.

However to answer your question - to advance spiritually is.......

1. to naturally experience an aversion to materialism including sex.
2. to have a natural attraction to hearing and talking about topics of Vedanta.
3. to become unaffected by suffering.
4. to become unaffected by happiness.
5. to become contented under all conditions.
6. to be peaceful under all conditions.
7. to understand everything in relation to everything else.
8 to see the hand of God in everything.
9. to see the true identity of every person in truth.
10. to develop all good qualities ( cleanliness, mercy, compassion, true friendships, knowledge, kindness, charity, gravity, peacefulness, contentedness etc)
11. to gradually develop affection towards God (symptoms are given in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu) quiet detailed.
12. to understand death does not exist.
13 to understand you are not the body and anything in relation to the body is temporary and illusionary.
14. to understand that friends, family acquaintances are all eternal spiritual entities- also having their unique relationship with God.

Due to space I have only briefly touched on this - because your question would require pages and pages to cover.

One very important thing....

Persons (anyone) always want to know what is the experience of spirituality without raising their consciousness to experience it themselves - and whilst not raising their consciousness they will always have difficulty understanding anything spiritual - and this is why they are often argumentative.

Originally posted by FMF
I would accept what you say but for the provocative emoticon.

Isn't that the name of a rock band? It should be.

😀😲🙄😴

Originally posted by Dasa
A good question and a sincere question....thanks.

You are asking what the honey taste like without tasting the honey yourself.

And the cliché answer is - you must dive into the honey pot.

However advancing in spirituality is equal to advancing in transcendental knowledge until loving sentiment has developed.

Loving God is not cheap and requires devo ...[text shortened]... have difficulty understanding anything spiritual - and this is why they are often argumentative.

"1. to naturally experience an aversion to materialism including sex.

3. to become unaffected by suffering.
4. to become unaffected by happiness."

What is it with religions and sex?
First thing off the bat... no sex... Every damn time.
Your obsessed with it, religions can't stop talking about (and banning or controlling) sex.
The fact that it is hugely beneficial to health and well-being, as well as being about as much fun as its possible to have (legally)
apparently is lost on you.

Also, 3 and 4, make you someone I don't want to know.
If you don't care about suffering or feel joy with others and your own happiness then what's the point, in anything.

As for the rest, just your usual theological drivel, albeit I wonder how accruing gravity is a virtue...
Your supposed to get fat to advance your spirit?

12 has me worried though.
Death very much exists, and its idiots who think it doesn't, or who think they have some wonderful afterlife waiting for them afterwards
who commit such atrocities as 9/11. or who simply allow suffering to go on, because, hey it's ok, they are going to heaven when they die.
Instead of actually doing something about it, because this one life is all anyone gets, and it should be made as good as possible.

There is no afterlife, nobody gets reborn, this is it, so get up off your knees, stop self flagellating, and start making it worthwhile, and
enjoy it.

And even if that were not true, acting like it is is still the best advice you could possibly get.

Originally posted by bbarr
When I was young my mother discipled herself to Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, a guru in the Sant Mat tradition, from the Radha Soami Satsang. We visited him in Beas, for darshan. My most salient memory is that her guru was very calm and kind, with a warm smile, and sat still for long periods of time. I'm sure there are very important differences between the Sant M ill I continue to have any desires at all? Will I still be a good friend, partner, lover?

continued...........

Ecstatic love of God is described in full in > "The Nectar of Devotion" by A.c. Bhaktivedanta Srila Prubhupada. PDF version free down load.

Download this book and everything you want to know about the symptoms of ecstatic love of God is there in full.

My puny effort to explain love of God will pale in comparison to this book.

Originally posted by googlefudge
[b]"1. to naturally experience an aversion to materialism including sex.

3. to become unaffected by suffering.
4. to become unaffected by happiness."

What is it with religions and sex?
First thing off the bat... no sex... Every damn time.
Your obsessed with it, religions can't stop talking about (and banning or controlling) sex.
The ...[text shortened]... f that were not true, acting like it is is still the best advice you could possibly get.[/b]

It refers to mundane happiness.

Spiritual life is about true spiritual happiness.

Mundane happiness is illusionary.

Originally posted by Dasa
It refers to mundane happiness.

Spiritual life is about true spiritual happiness.

Mundane happiness is illusionary.

how about suffering?

And I am not convinced that there is anything other than just happiness.
The only difference being what makes you happy.
And why, if there is a distinction, is it not possible to have both.

Also, if one is unable to tell the difference between an illusion and what is real...
Is there a difference?

Originally posted by Dasa
3. to become unaffected by suffering.
4. to become unaffected by happiness.

This, right here, is the 'spiritual anaesthetic' that I wholeheartedly reject. And right up there at No.3 and No.4 on the list of what to do to advance what is purportedly "spiritually", no less!

Originally posted by FMF
This, right here, is the 'spiritual anaesthetic' that I wholeheartedly reject. And right up there at No.3 and No.4 on the list of what to do to advance what is purportedly "spiritually", no less!

You foolish man...

I have not said that this is what you have to do to advance.

I have said these are symptoms of one who is advancing.

There is an important difference.

Can you not read anything at all without twisting it inside-out.

Originally posted by googlefudge
how about suffering?

And I am not convinced that there is anything other than just happiness.
The only difference being what makes you happy.
And why, if there is a distinction, is it not possible to have both.

Also, if one is unable to tell the difference between an illusion and what is real...
Is there a difference?

Have I said that all there is is happiness.

Temporary mundane/illusionary happiness is meaningless and is affected by different conditions.....and if the conditions are not there then the happiness is not there.

Permanent spiritual happiness is true happiness and unaffected by material conditions......and is there all the time regardless of conditions.

Originally posted by Dasa
You foolish man...

I have not said that this is what you have to do to advance.

I have said these are symptoms of one who is advancing.

There is an important difference.

They are symptoms of 'spiritual anaesthetic', escapism, a numbing of the human spirit, a kind of selfishness and loss of nerve, all masquerading as "spirituality". You serve to demonstrate the interpersonal dysfunction your creed seems to celebrate. I assert your right to believe what you want to believe about yourself. But I reject it for myself..

Originally posted by Dasa
You foolish man...

I have not said that this is what you have to do to advance.

I have said these are symptoms of one who is advancing.

There is an important difference.

Can you not read anything at all without twisting it inside-out.

I don't think it was a foolish comment. What is the differentiation you are making between these two attributes being inputs or outputs, the effect on the person is the same.

Originally posted by Dasa
Have I said that all there is is happiness.

Temporary mundane/illusionary happiness is meaningless and is affected by different conditions.....and if the conditions are not there then the happiness is not there.

Permanent spiritual happiness is true happiness and unaffected by material conditions......and is there all the time regardless of conditions.

This is one of the reasons God's only begotten Son was sent to us, because
we can not gain true happiness on our on. He said He came that we might
have life and life more abundantly.