Spirituality
30 Oct 15
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by Rajk999There is only one body, one Lord, one Spirit. You keep applying the failings of those that
I dont understand that question to be honest, but it sounds like you are asking me about a specific case and the answer like I keep saying that it is up to Christ to decide.
What I know is what the Bible is clear about and that is that there are two types of Christian:
- those that please God and who are referred to as sheep, fruitful branches, the elec ...[text shortened]... generally say that the latter category is not possible as all Christians will get eternal life.
end up rejecting Christ to the whole body of Christian believers. That is a disservice to
the Body of Christ, yet I suppose that is the only way in your doctrine that those that reject
Jesus Christ or fail to know Him in this life can have a hope.
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by KellyJayDid Christ not mention that there are those that will claim to believe in Him but He would reject them? Those would claim to be followers but would not do Gods will?
There is only one body, one Lord, one Spirit. You keep applying the failings of those that
end up rejecting Christ to the whole body of Christian believers. That is a disservice to
the Body of Christ, yet I suppose that is the only way in your doctrine that those that reject
Jesus Christ or fail to know Him in this life can have a hope.
Am I making that up?
Paul and the Apostles spoke of Christians that will fall away and cannot be forgiven?
Am I making that up?
In Jesus's messages to the seven churches, did he not speak of evil people and sinners in the churches who He will reject and blot out their names from the book of life?
Am I making that up?
These are Christians of which the Bible speaks of .. Christians.
Your definition of a Christian is not the Bibles definition. You seem to want to claim that Christian = Christ's sheep = Christ true followers.
Therein is the problem and why we cannot agree. I use what the Bible calls Chrsitian or followers of Chrsit .. it is those who claim to be one. That is the Bible definition.
Not all who claim to be followers are in fact follwers. Hence some will be rejected by Christ
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I've pointed out to you more than once that Jesus said those that didn't believe in Him
Did Christ not mention that there are those that will claim to believe in Him but He would reject them? Those would claim to be followers but would not do Gods will?
Am I making that up?
Paul and the Apostles spoke of Christians that will fall away and cannot be forgiven?
Am I making that up?
In Jesus's messages to the seven churches, did he not spe ...[text shortened]...
Not all who claim to be followers are in fact follwers. Hence some will be rejected by Christ
were condemned already, because they didn't believe in Him. God is not a God of
confusion as you are making Him out to be, with your Insistence that anyone could be
justified by God through their own good works contrary to God's Word.
With respect to those that do not obey Him, but are living in their flesh, they are not
followers of Jesus Christ, but their own flesh. You should not confuse those who have
turned their lives over to God and those that live for the flesh. I'm not arguing with you
that there will be those that will stand before God condemned due to rejecting Christ in
their lives by choosing the flesh instead. Since those are condemn why do you think
anyone else could be saved by their own efforts without Jesus?
Yes, I'm claiming that those that answer God's call in believing in Jesus are God's true
sheep, His is the only name by which we can be saved. He is the Way, the Truth, and the
Life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. Beyond that you are adding to the Word
and are indeed making it up.
As I pointed out to you over and over yes, not everyone who claims to followers of God
are, and those that are not following God are not followers of God either.
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by KellyJaySo according to you the number of Christians in the world, or in a church is an unknown. Nobody knows whose heart is right with God except Christ himself.
I've pointed out to you more than once that Jesus said those that didn't believe in Him
were condemned already, because they didn't believe in Him. God is not a God of
confusion as you are making Him out to be, with your Insistence that anyone could be
justified by God through their own good works contrary to God's Word.
With respect to those that do ...[text shortened]... to followers of God
are, and those that are not following God are not followers of God either.
Or is it that you are claiming to know these things?
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by divegeesterWell first I dont understand what you mean by "in practical terms" to be honest. I simply quote what Christ and the Apostles say as clearly as I can... that is a practical as I get.
If you say so.
Btw I haven't forgotten that you ducked out of that other thread because you couldn't explain what your beliefs meant in practical terms 🙂
Next Im not into lecturing and long cut and pastes stuff. I carry on on this forum like if it is a conversation Im having with a friend over a beer. I say something and you respond hopefully so that I can respond to what you say... so after a while we get to understanding each other viewpoint.
You did not give me any feedback on what I said apart from saying that I did not answer your question. So its like we sitting in the pub having a cold one and everything I say you say I did not answer your questions .. eventually I will walk out leave you there .. get it ? 🙂
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by KellyJaySo we do not know who is Christian and who is not according to your definition.
Unknown except to God yes.
Now those like sonship, checkbaiter and many others here claim to know for sure that all Christians will get eternal life.
You seem to support them for the most part except you disagreed slightly with checkbaiter. recently on this thread.
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by Rajk999That is not what I said, please read what is said to you. We know that those that belong
So we do not know who is Christian and who is not according to your definition.
Now those like sonship, checkbaiter and many others here claim to know for sure that all Christians will get eternal life.
You seem to support them for the most part except you disagreed slightly with checkbaiter. recently on this thread.
to God are born again, we know that those that are born to God have God's Spirit, we
know that those that belong to God actually follow and obey God. NO ONE SAID ever that
everyone who claims to be a Christian will be saved I don't believe I have even seen them
say that either.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Now those like sonship, checkbaiter and many others here claim to know for sure that all Christians will get eternal life.
When we lead someone to believe in Jesus we first have to lay a solid foundation in the security of eternal life.
For on day 1 they are saved. On day 2 Satan the accuser of our conscience will begin to attack:
"Oh, so YOU'RE saved huh? What about what you did a few hours ago ? How can you be saved? Have can you be a follower of Jesus ?"
The security of eternal redemption is crucial to arm them against the incessant attack (with ground or with no ground) of the enemy against the conscience.
Now, I would call your attention to the announcement of the overcoming saints in Rev.12.
" ... Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ,
for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night." (v.10)
The incessant accusation of Satan continues before God day and night. Satan never stops accusing God to us and accusing us to God. He does this based upon his ancient knowledge of good and evil. But he underestimates the power of Christ's redemption.
We have been judged on the cross of Christ at Calvary. God has not overlooked our wrongs. He has judged them upon Christ.
Now we see that it says they overcame Satan (not because they were perfect) but because of three factors:
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their sol-life even unto death." (v.11)
The obliterate Satan's accusation by the eternal redemption accomplished in Christ's shed blood for the sinners.
The obliterate Satan's power by proclaiming the truth the real facts of reality as the word of their testimony.
They overcome all Satan's ground of opposition because they love Jesus more than their soul-life - that is the self. In short, the allow the enjoyment of Christ living in them to overshadow the love of self and that even unto death.
This remnant of overcoming victors bring in the kingdom of God.
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02 Nov 15
Revelation 12:10,11 does not say that they overcame the Devil because they no longer had any failures or no longer made any sins.
It says they overcame Satan because of standing on the eternal redemption in the blood of Jesus.
In addition they do not argue with Satan with theology.
Rather they proclaim the FACTS and the real truth of the word of God as "the word of their testimony.".
It is a fact that Jesus is Lord.
It is a fact that we are crucified with Christ.
It is a fact that we are buried with Him spiritually and raised with Him too.
It is a fact that Christ lives in us as Christians.
It is a fact that the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the builded church.
They overcome Satan but reasoning with him but by proclaiming the real facts of the universe as God's Gospel. And they do it to the extent that they love the Christ and the truth more than they love their own soul-life - the fallen self.
Originally posted by sonshipSo is it possible to say what you want to say clearly so that KJ can understand.
Revelation 12:10,11 does not say that they overcame the Devil because they no longer had any failures or no longer made any sins.
It says they overcame Satan because of standing on the eternal redemption in the blood of Jesus.
In addition they do not argue with Satan with theology.
Rather they proclaim the FACTS and the real truth of the word of G ...[text shortened]... at they love the Christ and the truth more than they love their own soul-life - the fallen self.
KJ's doctrine is that only TRUE Christians cannot lose their eternal life. [i agree with him on this one]
Your doctrine is that ALL Christians cannot lose their eternal life. Your definition of a Chrsitan is one that has proclaimed their belief in Jesus Chrsit and accepted him as their saviour. They will be punished for their wrong doings but they will still get eternal life.
Is that correct
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03 Nov 15
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
Your doctrine is that ALL Christians cannot lose their eternal life.
I recognize that there are nominal Christians.
The important point is that as many as received Him He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name (John 1:12) .
These are born of God. And birth cannot be reversed.
Birth cannot be unbirthed.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God. " (vs. 12,13)
Your focus may be on "What do people call themselves?"
Though that is important it is more important that men and women be born of God by receiving Jesus Christ, by believing into His name.