"atheism is a belief"

Originally posted by twhitehead
The connotation doesn't frighten me either, it does however incorrectly describe the situation. Every time I take a step I am not believing in the lack of a deity to bring my foot down. I do not take any actions which rely on the lack of a deity for their completion. It is not a belief that I rely on. I do not believe in not-G.

To give another example: ...[text shortened]... But believing not-C is not life changing nor something I describe myself as believing [b]in.[/b]

Would the word 'in' still bother you as used in this sentence: "I believe in the truth of the proposition not-G."?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Atheism rejects God and gods, it is quite simple and as it does so it colors how all other
things will be viewed and measured. Fruit fairies not so much.

Kelly, i would not ask you to reconsider 'theism' but i am asking you to think again about 'atheism.' I ask this because the best way for you to understand atheism is to really listen to an atheist. (Just like you would listen to your dentist if you wanted to understand teeth).

Yes, atheists 'may' reject God (or simply never consciously take religion seriously, so reject indirectly). It is not always a case of proudly declaring "There is no God." - You are incorrect in your assessment however that the rejection of God colours (u inserted) how all other things are viewed and measured. - I totally understand how, as a theist, why you may think this, but it simply isn't true. As a theist you naturally think that an absence of God must leave a massive hole in an atheist's life that he will have to fill. For a theist to lose God suddenly would indeed leave a hole, but this is not the case for an atheist. I know it is difficult to hear, but it really is like saying to me that rejecting 'fruit fairies' (or ghosts or aliens) will colour how i view or measure things. - There are many things in my life that affect my outlook, but an absence of God really isn't one of them.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Would the word 'in' still bother you as used in this sentence: "I believe in the truth of the proposition not-G."?

Tricky. It depends how it is said. Also its not really about it bothering me, but rather whether or not it accurately describes my position.
Would you say that you 'believe in the truth of the proposition not-fairies'? What difference if any would you see in the meaning of the sentence if you changed 'in' to 'that'?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Kelly, i would not ask you to reconsider 'theism' but i am asking you to think again about 'atheism.' I ask this because the best way for you to understand atheism is to really listen to an atheist. (Just like you would listen to your dentist if you wanted to understand teeth).

Yes, atheists 'may' reject God (or simply never consciously take relig ...[text shortened]... e many things in my life that affect my outlook, but an absence of God really isn't one of them.

Without God it isn't just a massive hole in one's life, though I believe that is true, but when I
say everything that is what I mean, everything. If there is no creator so the whole of the
universe must be viewed as if there is no reason for it, no purpose. There can be no over
riding right and wrong over the views of man, it all changes without God.

Originally posted by rwingett
Atheism pretty much rules out supernaturalism. But beyond that, everything is fair game.

Supernaturalism is just naturalism without our buy off. 🙂

Originally posted by KellyJay
Without God it isn't just a massive hole in one's life, though I believe that is true, but when I
say everything that is what I mean, everything. If there is no creator so the whole of the
universe must be viewed as if there is no reason for it, no purpose. There can be no over
riding right and wrong over the views of man, it all changes without God.

It only 'changes' if you are a theist who suddenly becomes atheist. The problem is that you are assuming incorrectly that your beliefs are the 'default stance' and that anyone who beliefs differently has a great big hole in their lives where your beliefs should have been.
Your oversized ego is blinding you.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I’ve not said anyone has to believe in the same thing I do. I’m simply pointing out the
gyrations Atheist go through to exclude their notions about God as being a defining
characteristic of their self-defining existence. It is almost as if they strongly wish to take
no ownership of their stance whatsoever with respect to if God is real or not, to reject ...[text shortened]... their cake and eat it too, without actually taking a
personal stand on the specific topic God.

I have said this many times, and will likely have to do so many times more.

Your religion, is in your mind, the source and starting point for your beliefs about a whole range of
subjects.

If you want to talk [or think] about morality, then you start from your religious beliefs.
If you want to talk [or think] about the meaning of life, or where we all came from, then you start
from your religious beliefs.
etc etc

And when you talk to other religious people, including from other religions, you find they tend to do
the same thing.

So it's not surprising that when you meet a person and start talking to them that you want to know what
their religious position is because that's the foundation cornerstone of your beliefs, and those of all the
religious people you know.


However, when you talk to someone like me, who's not religious and is an atheist, you have a problem.

Because my 'religious position' is that I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious atheist.

And you look at this position of not believing in any religions and not believing in the existence of gods and
wonder "how can you build morality from that?" or "How do you find meaning from a disbelief in gods?" etc.

In fact most questions theists ask atheists seem to me to be directly linkable to this mistake.


The mistake, because it is a mistake, is to think that an atheists STARTS with their religious views when
thinking about a subject.

As I also say in my bio, I am an atheist, but that tells you little about me because my atheism is the result
of my belief system and not the source of it.


For example. You claim this:

Without God it isn't just a massive hole in one's life, though I believe that is true, but when I
say everything that is what I mean, everything. If there is no creator so the whole of the
universe must be viewed as if there is no reason for it, no purpose. There can be no over
riding right and wrong over the views of man, it all changes without God.

Basically saying that our worldview, our ideas about how the universe came to be, and how it functions,
are influenced by the fact that we STARTED by ruling out god/s or creators and moved on from there.

But you have it backwards.

We start by looking at the world and applying logic and reason to the evidence we observe and CONCLUDE that
[among many other things] there is no good reason to suppose that a god or gods or a creator exist.

When we think about meaning in life, or about morality, we do that from our belief systems we hold.
Which in my case would be Secular Humanism and Transhumanism [among others] but that will
vary from atheist to atheist.
Now Secular Humanism is not a religion, but it is a belief system and performs many of the same social
and moral functions as religions do for their followers.

This is where you go wrong.

Atheism is a result, not a starting point.

We DON'T go around thinking about the world in terms of our atheism, because it's not a foundation of my/our
beliefs, but is instead the result of them.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I have said this many times, and will likely have to do so many times more.

Your religion, is in your mind, the source and starting point for your beliefs about a whole range of
subjects.

If you want to talk [or think] about morality, then you start from your religious beliefs.
If you want to talk [or think] about the meaning of life, or where w ...[text shortened]... r atheism, because it's not a foundation of my/our
beliefs, but is instead the result of them.

An excellent post.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
An excellent post.

Thankyou. 🙂

Originally posted by KellyJay
Without God it isn't just a massive hole in one's life, though I believe that is true, but when I
say everything that is what I mean, everything. If there is no creator so the whole of the
universe must be viewed as if there is no reason for it, no purpose. There can be no over
riding right and wrong over the views of man, it all changes without God.

I understand what you are saying Kelly, but you are only seeing things though the eyes of a Christian.(Which is almost inescapable). I have however (along with twhitehead and googlefudge) tried to show you how things look through the eyes of an atheist.

Look at it this way, how would you respond if i said to you that as a Christian you reject the Hindu God Vishnu and that this rejection therefore colours everything you view and measure? (You would probably respond that not having Vishnu in your life doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever. Well an atheist would answer the same thing when it comes to the absence of your chosen God).

Originally posted by KellyJay
Atheism rejects God and gods, it is quite simple and as it does so it colors how all other
things will be viewed and measured.

That doesn't make much sense. To not believe in god(s) (to reject your claims about their existence) leaves us free to accept reality for what it is, rather than having our views and measurements "coloured".

Originally posted by googlefudge
I have said this many times, and will likely have to do so many times more.

Your religion, is in your mind, the source and starting point for your beliefs about a whole range of
subjects.

If you want to talk [or think] about morality, then you start from your religious beliefs.
If you want to talk [or think] about the meaning of life, or where w ...[text shortened]... r atheism, because it's not a foundation of my/our
beliefs, but is instead the result of them.

There isn't a backwards with respect to viewing the universe one way or another, no
matter what side of, if God is real or not, will cause you to view the universe the way you
believe. It does not matter if you look at it and you see no reason to believe in one, or you
don't believe in one so you don't see the reason. The very fact you are there has given
you the view God isn't real so your whole view of the universe is godless, your locked in.

I'm not talking about how you got there, but what do you see while your there. You do not
have to go around thinking in terms of Atheism, that is all you have so it is the default
view. Your whole view is painted with the reality of it, be it real or not, it paints all of the
universe with the results of that view, it is a world view of beliefs that carry on in all things.

Originally posted by C Hess
That doesn't make much sense. To not believe in god(s) (to reject your claims about their existence) leaves us free to accept reality for what it is, rather than having our views and measurements "coloured".

Yes, that is exactly right, you view it as you think it should be, it really doesn't matter if it
is real or not. You have what reality is supposed to be in your head, and that is how you
look at it all, even if you are wrong, you accept it as you believe it to be true. You will reject
anything even if it is right in your face if it doesn't fit reality as you see it. I can even tell
you how it will work itself out too, you'll think there must be some reason for this that
works it out, we just don't know it yet, or someone has the answer I just don't at this time.

Originally posted by KellyJay
There isn't a backwards with respect to viewing the universe one way or another, no
matter what side of, if God is real or not, will cause you to view the universe the way you
believe. It does not matter if you look at it and you see no reason to believe in one, or you
don't believe in one so you don't see the reason. The very fact you are there has give ...[text shortened]... iverse with the results of that view, it is a world view of beliefs that carry on in all things.

There isn't a backwards with respect to viewing the universe one way or another, no
matter what side of, if God is real or not, will cause you to view the universe the way you
believe

Wrong.

By claiming that our 'not believing in god' will CAUSE us to view the universe differently you
are placing our lack of belief in god/s as a START point for our belief formation.
You are placing the lack of belief in gods at the beginning of the causal train.

This is wrong as I explained at length in my earlier post.

We don't view the universe differently BECAUSE we don't believe in god/s.

We don't believe in god/s because of our view of the universe.

You do indeed have it exactly backwards.

Originally posted by googlefudge

There isn't a backwards with respect to viewing the universe one way or another, no
matter what side of, if God is real or not, will cause you to view the universe the way you
believe

Wrong.

By claiming that our 'not believing in god' will CAUSE us to view the universe differently you
are placing our lack of belief in god/s as a ...[text shortened]... elieve in god/s because of our view of the universe.

You do indeed have it exactly backwards.

We disagree, because I'm not saying what causes your rejection of God, I actually could
careless what that was or is. If you step into a room with rose colored windows than they
are what you have to look through, it doesn't matter how or why you are in the room, in the
room you are.

The genesis of your view *pun intended* doesn't matter, it only matters what your views
are, because again they will cause you to look at things the way you think they should
be looked at.