Back to Spirituality

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Apparently everyone is trying to earn Brownie points from myself. (In truth I only give out badges).

Although I don't believe in the existence of a deity, I'm keen to stress that this doesn't mean I have gone out to find something to fill the void. I don't think there is a void to fill. I haven't sought an alternative.

Hmm...

Consciously I accept you haven't attempted to fill the void of God.

Subconsciously methinks you worship that what you call 'knobbly'.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Apparently everyone is trying to earn Brownie points from myself. (In truth I only give out badges).

Although I don't believe in the existence of a deity, I'm keen to stress that this doesn't mean I have gone out to find something to fill the void. I don't think there is a void to fill. I haven't sought an alternative.

I understand but It occurs to me that “I don’t think there is a void to fill” is a ‘belief with a different coloured hat on.
I think the term ‘believer’ when used by a theist is something very specific, some of them even call each other ‘non believers’ for picking the incorrect entity to believe in. Or even ostensibly the same entity but represented by the wrong prophet / ambassador.
I put all my eggs in the ever changing empirical evidence basket and if that, at some point leads to an entity, so be it, if not, so be it. Following the empirical evidence is the only alternative to faith IMO.

@kevcvs57 said
I understand but It occurs to me that “I don’t think there is a void to fill” is a ‘belief with a different coloured hat on.
I think the term ‘believer’ when used by a theist is something very specific, some of them even call each other ‘non believers’ for picking the incorrect entity to believe in. Or even ostensibly the same entity but represented by the wrong prophet / a ...[text shortened]... , so be it, if not, so be it. Following the empirical evidence is the only alternative to faith IMO.

It is a 'disbelief.'

In the same way I disbelieve in the existence of ghosts. It can't be said that I believe in the non-existence of ghosts.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is a 'disbelief.'

In the same way I disbelieve in the existence of ghosts. It can't be said that I believe in the non-existence of ghosts.

I didn’t think we were talking about ghosts I though we were talking about ultimate truths regarding the nature of existence.
I would say however that you believe we inhabit a reality in which ghosts do not exist.
I use the word ‘believe’ in the sense that I might say to you. ‘I believe you stole my pencil’ even though I never saw you steal my pencil but we were the only people in the room when the pencil went missing. I don’t assign the word belief with any more strength than that when addressing an atheist on this subject.
Like many of the words used in the English language the context is important.

@kevcvs57 said
I understand but It occurs to me that “I don’t think there is a void to fill” is a ‘belief with a different coloured hat on.
I think the term ‘believer’ when used by a theist is something very specific, some of them even call each other ‘non believers’ for picking the incorrect entity to believe in. Or even ostensibly the same entity but represented by the wrong prophet / a ...[text shortened]... , so be it, if not, so be it. Following the empirical evidence is the only alternative to faith IMO.

Lack of belief in x is not the same as belief in not-x.

I don’t have a word for not believing in pixies. There is no void to fill there. I also don’t believe in witches or ghosts. There is no void to fill there either.

@neilarini said
Hmm...
Consciously I accept you haven't attempted to fill the void of God.

Maybe this god didn’t drop its pants otherwise I’m sure the Goad would have obliged.

@kevcvs57 said
I didn’t think we were talking about ghosts I though we were talking about ultimate truths regarding the nature of existence.
I would say however that you believe we inhabit a reality in which ghosts do not exist.
I use the word ‘believe’ in the sense that I might say to you. ‘I believe you stole my pencil’ even though I never saw you steal my pencil but we were the only ...[text shortened]... eist on this subject.
Like many of the words used in the English language the context is important.

It is true Kev I'm a little wary of using 'belief' in this forum as it will invariably be compared like for like with the belief a theist holds.

I do of course believe in things that are knowledge-based (specifically on empirical evidence) like the Earth being a globe or the existence of gravity. A Theist, however (and this is not necessarily a criticism) will hold beliefs that are not based on empirical evidence. On some level, I admire that, but it does differentiate them significantly from the beliefs I hold.

@neilarini said
Hmm...

Consciously I accept you haven't attempted to fill the void of God.

Subconsciously methinks you worship that what you call 'knobbly'.

That will cause much confusion in this forum Neil.

😀

@moonbus said
Lack of belief in x is not the same as belief in not-x.

I don’t have a word for not believing in pixies. There is no void to fill there. I also don’t believe in witches or ghosts. There is no void to fill there either.

What is it you have a lack of belief in?
Is it any known model of an entity or do you know for a fact that no entity exists? Because if it’s the former then we are in a agreement, if however its the latter then I would like to see the evidence.

@kevcvs57 said
What is it you have a lack of belief in?
Is it any known model of an entity or do you know for a fact that no entity exists? Because if it’s the former then we are in a agreement, if however its the latter then I would like to see the evidence.

Tell me which entity, and I'll tell you whether I believe that it does not exist or lack belief in its existence.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is true Kev I'm a little wary of using 'belief' in this forum as it will invariably be compared like for like with the belief a theist holds.

I do of course believe in things that are knowledge-based (specifically on empirical evidence) like the Earth being a globe or the existence of gravity. A Theist, however (and this is not necessarily a criticism) will hold ...[text shortened]... On some level, I admire that, but it does differentiate them significantly from the beliefs I hold.

Yes ghost a belief in things that contradict empirical evidence or even lack substantiation by virtue of a lack of empirical evidence puts theists in a particular category separate form us.
We differ in that I struggle to accept any kind of model for the universe that isn’t positively substantiated by empirical evidence. Even the extremely unlikely entity driven one but as long as it doesn’t stop me from following the empirical evidence where’s the harm in leaving the question open?

@moonbus said
Tell me which entity, and I'll tell you whether I believe that it does not exist or lack belief in its existence.

Mmm I don’t have a model for an entity in mind and I don’t think I ever will but I don’t think that rules out the possibility entirely.

@kevcvs57 said
Yes ghost a belief in things that contradict empirical evidence or even lack substantiation by virtue of a lack of empirical evidence puts theists in a particular category separate form us.
We differ in that I struggle to accept any kind of model for the universe that isn’t positively substantiated by empirical evidence. Even the extremely unlikely entity driven one but as ...[text shortened]... doesn’t stop me from following the empirical evidence where’s the harm in leaving the question open?

Does your need for empirical evidence extend beyond the constructs of entities, ghosts, gods?

For examples:

- Do you believe that “spirituality” is anything more than a particular cognitive emotive experience which occurs within the examinable processes of the human brain?

- do you believe in space aliens? What about intelligence on other planets? Why?

@divegeester said
Does your need for empirical evidence extend beyond the constructs of entities, ghosts, gods?

For examples:

- Do you believe that “spirituality” is anything more than a particular cognitive emotive experience which occurs within the examinable processes of the human brain?

- do you believe in space aliens? What about intelligence on other planets? Why?

That’s a bit of a list dive but I’ll give it a go
“ Does your need for empirical evidence extend beyond the constructs of entities, ghosts, gods? ”
Yes i would think it extends to everything to differing degrees with the obvious proviso that I cannot grasp every aspect of reality that is proven by empirical evidence, most of quantum physics falls into this category.

“ - Do you believe that “spirituality” is anything more than a particular cognitive emotive experience which occurs within the examinable processes of the human brain?”
I cannot have a belief about it either way in general. It may be the case that we are given to have an illusion of spirituality based on the chemistry and wiring of our brains whilst coincidentally there actually is a spiritual aspect to the nature of existence. If Descarte had stopped at ‘cogito ergo sum’ he an I would be in total agreement.

“ - do you believe in space aliens? What about intelligence on other planets? Why?”
I’ve never seen one and the evidence for intelligent life on other planets is inferred from what we know about about the nature of life on Earth. I would say intelligence on other planets is almost a mathematical certainty. But on the question of space aliens visiting earth I am unaware of of any substantiated empirical evidence in support of the rumours. A part of me would like it to be true but that’s probably down to chemistry and wiring of my brain as well.

@kevcvs57 said
Mmm I don’t have a model for an entity in mind and I don’t think I ever will but I don’t think that rules out the possibility entirely.

I don't have a model for a model entity, so I cannot answer your question.