Barriers to belief

Originally posted by FMF
All of them, basically. If sacrificing yourself for your god figure and for your fellow religionists is evidence of the veracity of your beliefs, then suicide bombers professing Islam have created a lot of "evidence" of the "truth" of Islam in the last few decades. And even if - as a thought exercise - I were to accept that no one had ever laid down their life f ...[text shortened]... ious beliefs, except Christians - It's simply not evidence of the veracity of what they believe.

Martyr - someone who is given the choice to give up their faith or face death. I know of Christian martyrs only. You said almost every religion has martyrs. So would you care to name a few. Suicide bombers don't just give up their own lives, they take innocent lives as well. They are certainly not martyrs but rather terrorists. Take some of the disciples of Jesus that were martyred for their faith, do you think they would have chosen to be crucified if they hadn't witnessed the risen Christ and seen his miracles?

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So if God gives you faith you can reject it or loose it?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Martyr - someone who is given the choice to give up their faith or face death. I know of Christian martyrs only. You said almost every religion has martyrs. So would you care to name a few. Suicide bombers don't just give up their own lives, they take innocent lives as well. They are certainly not martyrs but rather terrorists. Take some of the disciples ...[text shortened]... uld have chosen to be crucified if they hadn't witnessed the risen Christ and seen his miracles?

You know of no martyrs outside of Christendom? You need to broaden your horizons. Here's one to start you off -

Guru Tegh Bahadur - A Sikh who was tortured and executed in 1675 for refusing to convert to Islam.

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Let me know if you have an answer once the eyes have stopped spinning. 😛

Originally posted by Proper Knob
You know of no martyrs outside of Christendom? You need to broaden your horizons. Here's one to start you off -

Guru Tegh Bahadur - A Sikh who was tortured and executed in 1675 for refusing to convert to Islam.

FMF claimed that all religions basically have martyrs. You have named only a single example.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
FMF claimed that all religions basically have martyrs. You have named only a single example.

I know. That's why i said - 'Here's one to start you off'.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Martyr - someone who is given the choice to give up their faith or face death. I know of Christian martyrs only. You said almost every religion has martyrs. So would you care to name a few. Suicide bombers don't just give up their own lives, they take innocent lives as well. They are certainly not martyrs but rather terrorists. Take some of the disciples ...[text shortened]... uld have chosen to be crucified if they hadn't witnessed the risen Christ and seen his miracles?

OK, I understand that it is your view that only Christians can be martyrs and that if a person sacrifices their life for their religion it proves that what they believe is true, but only if they are Christians. I understand that this is your view.

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I think if someone 'looses their faith' it was not genuine to start off with.

Originally posted by FMF
OK, I understand that it is your view that only Christians can be martyrs and that if a person sacrifices their life for their religion it proves that what they believe is true, but only if they are Christians. I understand that this is your view.

You know that is not my view. I asked you a question that you have once again dodged. Take some of the disciples of Jesus that were martyred for their faith, do you think they would have chosen to be crucified if they hadn't witnessed the risen Christ and seen his miracles and truly believed that he was the who he claimed he was?

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FMF seems to think the 'faith' he lost was genuine. Do you think he lost 'genuine' faith or not? He still calls it faith. And you are the one claiming that faith can be lost, not me.