Bible Translations

Originally posted by galveston75
To leunammi..... See this is the usual response we get when Jehovah's name is being discussed. They don't feel comfortable with it.

Am I wrong with what I said?

Originally posted by leunammi
Am I wrong with what I said?

Oh no. I was speaking of the person who made that post to Robbie. Sorry.

Originally posted by galveston75
To leunammi..... See this is the usual response we get when Jehovah's name is being discussed. They don't feel comfortable with it.

I think ultimately it is not about comfort but about truth. One needs to answer questions or should be able to with something. No worries

FMF: What do you think of Jason BeDuhn's criticism of the way the name "Jehovah" is used in the NWT?

Originally posted by galveston75
That would be his opinion, just as all you say is yours.

Yes. I know it's his opinion. And I know my opinions are my opinions. But my question is about your opinion. If Jason BeDuhn criticizes of the way the name "Jehovah" is used in the NWT for reasons of translation accuracy, in your opinion, what do you make of his analysis? He is said to be an "independent" scholar. Do you reject his analysis?

FMF: You reject this key part of Jason BeDuhn's 2003 study? On one hand you tout his praise for certain aspects of the NWT bible, but when he is critical, suddenly it's a case of "Regardless of what he thinks..."?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the key part???

Based on galveston75's subsequent comments, it would seem that the way the name "Jehovah" is used in the NWT is a key thing for him (to put it mildly) and therefore any objection to its use by Jason BeDuhn would be a "key part" of his analysis of the NWT. Do you and galveston75 simply not see eye to eye on this matter?

Originally posted by FMF
Yes. I know it's his opinion. And I know my opinions are my opinions. But my question is about your opinion. If Jason BeDuhn criticizes of the way the name "Jehovah" is used in the NWT for reasons of translation accuracy, in your opinion, what do you make of his analysis? He is said to be an "independent" scholar. Do you reject his analysis?

You know all I care about is truth and I've had this bible and it's earlier version all my life and the kingdom halls have libraries with almost every bible imaginable to compare this bible too. Most are OK and if it's all we had, they would do. But when certain doctrines were forced into the church such as the trinity, then when bibles were written by copyers some were forced to change certain terms or had some taken away in order to please the church and it's dogma's as the centuries past. Even sometimes just one word could change a scripture to fit the needed effect. Like if Jesus "was A god" of if "he was God". Lots of weight with that change.
This is what the NWT has tried to do and that is compare it to all known writings in connection with the bible and correct any obvious mistakes whether by accident or on purpose.....

Originally posted by galveston75
You know all I care about is truth and I've had this bible and it's earlier version all my life and the kingdom halls have libraries with almost every bible imaginable to compare this bible too. Most are OK and if it's all we had, they would do. But when certain doctrines were forced into the church such as the trinity, then when bibles were written by c ...[text shortened]... onnection with the bible and correct any obvious mistakes whether by accident or on purpose.....

It's certainly difficult to get you to address Jason BeDuhn criticism of the translation accuracy involved in using the name "Jehovah" in the NWT. He is the only Bible scholar's analysis that robbie has been able to cite and yet it strikes to the very heart of how the NWT is carefully in alignment with your organization's ideological needs.

Originally posted by FMF
It's certainly difficult to get you to address Jason BeDuhn criticism of the translation accuracy involved in using the name "Jehovah" in the NWT. He is the only Bible scholar's analysis that robbie has been able to cite and yet it strikes to the very heart of how the NWT is carefully in alignment with your organization's ideological needs.

Maybe I just don't have a comment to make???? Your always trying to get me and Robbie to go against each other. Dream on...

Originally posted by galveston75
Maybe I just don't have a comment to make???? Your always trying to get me and Robbie to go against each other. Dream on...

You're in a discussion about "Bible Translations". robbie touts Jason BeDuhn and can seemingly cite no one else, even though BeDuhn savages one of the key features of the NWT. You, meanwhile, get all foggy and pouty when asked about BeDuhn's analysis. If you think robbie was perhaps mistaken to cite BeDuhn, you should take it up with him.

Originally posted by galveston75
Maybe I just don't have a comment to make???? Your always trying to get me and Robbie to go against each other. Dream on...

Transparent and plastic isn't it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Transparent and plastic isn't it.

Me Transparent? Yes. I should hope so, too. Indeed, I make no secret of the fact I am intrigued by your peculiar intellectual behaviour every single time you bring up the name Jason BeDuhn.

You just seem to blank out the fact that he is a scathing critic of one of the key elements of Jehovah's Witness theology and that, in this key regard, he slams the NWT for being "not [an] accurate translation by the most basic principle of accuracy" because it "violates accuracy in favor of denominationally preferred expressions for God" [I've taken this from the wiki text you deliberately omitted in your copy paste on page 1].

BeDuhn has good things to say about other aspects of the translation, but his condemnation of the NWT's translation accuracy in the matter of the name "Jehovah" - a fundamental theological matter for JWs - is absolutely withering.

And yet you bring up his name time and time again. And you behave in the same way time and time again.

Originally posted by divegeester
So when Robbie quotes BeDuhn favourably to the NWT, is that just "his opinion" too?

Bump for Galveston75

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

I am not getting into a debate about the correct pronunciation of the divine name, no one knows how it was pronounced, its represented by four consonants JHVH or YHWH depending on who you ask. The example was cited to show that its there and we have restored it to its rightful place.

Awabakal - Yehóa
Bugotu - Jihova
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Danish - Jehova
Dutch - Jehovah
Efik - Jehovah
English - Jehovah
Fijian - Jiova
Finnish - Jehova
French - Jéhovah
Futuna - Ihova
German - Jehova
Hungarian - Jehova
Igbo - Jehova
Italian - Geova
Japanese - Ehoba
...
...
etc.

Very good list.

Now notice that the Apostle Paul, under inspiration, absolutely ... ABSOLUTELY made Joel 2:32 refer to the Lord Jesus.

Crucial portion only in bold -

"That is you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved... For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him;

For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (See Romans 10:9-13; comp JOEL 2 :32)

Originally posted by sonship

I am not getting into a debate about the correct pronunciation of the divine name, no one knows how it was pronounced, its represented by four consonants JHVH or YHWH depending on who you ask. The example was cited to show that its there and we have restored it to its rightful place.

Awabakal - Yehóa
Bugotu - Jihova
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Dan ...[text shortened]... s upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (See Romans 10:9-13; comp JOEL 2 :32)

[/b]

What absolute complete nonsense. The Apostles words are a direct quotation from the Hebrew of Joel 2:32 and made with reference to Jehovah, the father, the divine name being preserved in the original language and we wont be taking any lessons on accurate translation from someone who has rejected the most accurate English translation of the Holy scriptures terming them sickening. Your fraudulent attempt to state that Joel 2:32 is made with reference to Jesus is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE! You remain a charlatan sir.

Furthermore there are two clauses to the verse, one to make public declaration about Christ and the other to put faith in God,

Romans 10:11 'For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord,and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved' - New world translation of the Holy scriptures

Its just like a trinitarian to ignore the original language and instead seek to impose his dogma onto scripture where none exists in the original, thank you for illustrating the fact.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

What absolute complete nonsense.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Romans the entire book is not nonsense.
I consider that charge as bordering on blasphemy.

The Apostles words are a direct quotation from the Hebrew of Joel 2:32

The flow of his instruction connects his quotation of Joel 2:32 with the new covenant teaching that to confess Jesus as Lord and raised from the dead leads to salvation.

The word "For" proves that he is CONTINUING his instruction -

This kind of continuation forms a chain connecting verses 10 - 13 to be his extended explanation of verse 9.

Don't try to bluff me man.

" That is you confess with your mouth JESUS as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; (v.9)

FOR ... with the hear there is believing unto righteousness and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation. (v.10)

FOR ... the Scripture says, "Everyone who beleives on Him shall not be put to shame." (v.11)

FOR ... there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the name Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him; (v.12)

FOR ... "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (v.13)

It is an unbroken chain of logic and not nonsense as you utter in unbelief and near blasphemy.

and made with reference to Jehovah, the father, the divine name being preserved in the original language and we wont be taking any lessons on accurate translation from someone who has rejected the most accurate English translation of the Holy scriptures terming them sickening. Your fraudulent attempt to state that Joel 2:32 is made with reference to Jesus is DEMONSTRABLY FALSE! You remain a charlatan sir.

What I just demonstrated was demonstrably true. Paul connects verses 10 through 13 as an absolute continuation of his explanation about confessing with the mouth Jesus as Lord and believing from the heart that God raised Him from the dead for eternal salvation.

Furthermore there are two clauses to the verse, one to make public declaration about Christ and the other to put faith in God,

For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord,and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved - NWT

Confession of Jesus as Lord and believing in the heart He is raised, alive, and can be known can be done in absolute privacy.

Your exposition is more sickening.

Its just like a trinitarian to ignore the original language and instead seek to impose his dogma onto scripture where none exists in the original, thank you for illustrating the fact.

Arguments of original language may impress some people here. They don't impress me. They come off as your bluffing.

Besides, not only Paul connects Joel 2:32 to confessing Jesus with the mouth to be saved. Peter also connected with believing into Jesus Christ in the books of Acts.

" And it shall be that veryone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus the Nazarene, a man shown by God to you to be approved by works of power and wonders and signs, which God did through Him in your midst, even as you yourselves know - ... God has raised up, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for Him to be held by it. ...

Therefore let all the house if Israel know assuredly that god has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you have crucified... (See Acts 2;14-31)

Peter is explaining the events of the day of Pentecost. God has poured out His Spirit upon all flesh. And those who open their mouths to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Whom God has made Lord and Christ, will receive into them this Holy Spirit.

This will take place even until the cataclysmic close of the age when the signs and wonders of God will encrease.

I know you felt insulted by what I said about the NWT. It was not meant to be personal. I told you to argue with me using your the ASV which your committee use to endorse.

But I am not intimidated by any bluffing about the so-called scholaship of the NWT. And just in case you didn't know, I have read some of it.