Originally posted by no1marauderWell, Jesus of course testified to the Old Testament being authored by God, and since He also handpicked His apostles and said the Holy Spirit would work through them, then of course the New Testament is authored by God as well.
Where does Jesus say in the Gospels that God authored the entire Bible which, of course, did not exist when Jesus lived (assuming He did)? You need not ignore Jesus' teaching that God authored the Bible since He never taught it; as far as the teachings of your "Lord" you are free to believe what you will but if you insist on not following Je ...[text shortened]... t that a real Jesus actually lived and that His words are accurately transcribed in the Gospels.
Originally posted by Darfius1) Where did Jesus testify to the OT written by God?
Well, Jesus of course testified to the Old Testament being authored by God, and since He also handpicked His apostles and said the Holy Spirit would work through them, then of course the New Testament is authored by God as well.
Please keep in mind that Jesus used the Septuagint (as is clear
from the vast majority of the quotations that He uses from the
OT) and you reject several of the books in the Septuagint. It
sounds like you reject Jesus's Bible.
2) The NT was formed in 4th century by a council which also
ratified the Septuagint's books. Revelation was not included in
that council, but added later.
The letter to St Timothy says is 'All Scripture is God-breathed,' but if fails
to define what Scripture is Scripture. If you are going to maintain
that the Coucil acted with the Holy Spirit, then how can you maintain
that Revelation is God-breathed, or the Book of Wisdom is not God-
breathed?
Nemesio
Originally posted by DarfiusI'll take that answer as a "no" Jesus never said the Bible was authored by God that is merely your interpretation. Jesus also clearly modified several Old Testament laws: his disciples gathered grain on the Sabbath, He spared the adulterer, He said divorce was contrary to God's Law, etc. It is clear that Jesus didn't see every word in the ancient law as inerrant; can you explain this?
Well, Jesus of course testified to the Old Testament being authored by God, and since He also handpicked His apostles and said the Holy Spirit would work through them, then of course the New Testament is authored by God as well.
Saying the "Holy Spirit will work through someone" is not saying every single word that they ever write down is inerrant; again you are leaping to a gigantic conclusion from very little evidence in the Gospels. As Visetd points out above that was a clear conflict among the authors of the new testament as between the value of works v. grace. This is why what Jesus says is what should count to a Christian, not what his disciples wrote.
Originally posted by NemesioWhy exactly would Jesus need a written OT if He had been there when the prophets wrote what they wrote? I'm unclear on this.
1) Where did Jesus testify to the OT written by God?
Please keep in mind that Jesus used the Septuagint (as is clear
from the vast majority of the quotations that He uses from the
OT) and you reject several of the books in the Septuagint. It
sounds like you reject Jesus's Bible.
2) The NT was formed in 4th century by a council which also
ratif ...[text shortened]... intain
that Revelation is God-breathed, or the Book of Wisdom is not God-
breathed?
Nemesio
Originally posted by no1marauder
First off, you will note that when Jesus is listing the commandments that must be kept to earn eternal life, He omits those like "Have no other Gods before me" and states only those which concern our relationships with other people. I find this a curious thing to do IF the ONLY path to salvation is through the worship of a particular God. I would submit this as proof that our salvation in Jesus' eyes depends on how we treat others i.e. good works.
no1, you would need to ignore my post entirely for this to be true.
I will add comments from John Gill's Exposition of the Bible. (www.crosswalk.com)
thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou
shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness.
Christ takes no notice of the ceremonial law, nor of the traditions of the elders, only moral precepts; and these only such as refer to the second, and not the first table of the law, which respect duty to the neighbour, and not to God: and this he does, because these commandments were more known, and were in common use; and he chose to instance in these, partly to show, that if men are under obligation to regard these, much more such as concern God more immediately; and partly, to observe, that if men are deficient in their duty to one another, they are much more so in their worship of God; and consequently, eternal life is never to be got and enjoyed by the performance of these things.
But at the critical point the mere keeping of the commandments isn't enough either, for this man is rich. So Jesus tells him that BEFORE the rich man can follow him he must "sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor".
Note Jesus's words. The part you missed was rather important : " if thou wilt be perfect "
John Gill's take on this verse :
"Wanting nothing, completely righteous, according to the tenor of the covenant of works, having no evil, concupiscence, or worldly lusts: our Lord signifies it was not enough to be possessed of negative holiness, and do no hurt to his neighbour, to his person, property, and estate, but he must love him, and do him good; and therefore, though so far as he had complied with the law, it was right and commendable; wherefore it is said by Mark, "that Jesus beholding him loved him"; had an affectionate regard to him as man, and approved of his intentions, seriousness, and actions, so far as agreeable; yet tells him,"
" go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou
shalt have treasure in heaven:"
not that either the law of God, or Gospel of Christ, require this to be done of all men, and at all times; for though it is a duty binding upon all, and always, to relieve the poor and the needy, yet a man is not obliged to give all that he has to them; see (2 Corinthians 8:11) nor does either legal or Christian perfection lie in doing this: a man may give all his goods to the poor and yet be destitute of the grace of God, (1 Corinthians 13:3) much less can such an action merit the heavenly treasure of eternal life. Nevertheless of some persons, and in some cases, it has been required, that they part with all their worldly substance, for the sake of Christ and his Gospel; as the apostles were called to leave all and follow Christ, as this man was also; for it is added,
and come and follow me:
between these two, Mark puts, "take up the cross"; all which to do, was much more than to sell what he had, and give to the poor; and indeed, in this branch lies Gospel perfection, or to be really and truly a Christian: for to "come" to Christ, is to believe in him, lay hold on him, receive and embrace him as a Saviour and Redeemer; and to "follow" him, is to be obedient to his will, to be observant of his commands, to submit to his ordinances, and to imitate him in the exercise of grace, and discharge of duty; neither of which can be done, without "taking up the cross"; bearing reproach and persecution with patience; undergoing hardships and difficulties, of one sort or another, which attend faith in Christ, a profession of his name, and following him the Lamb
That's how I interpret it and the Sermon on the Mount and other parts of the Gospels, including several parables, support the interpretation that Jesus was first and foremost concerned with how people treated their fellow man.
We know from Jesus's own words that the two most important commands are. Love your God then Love your fellow man.
pc
Originally posted by Darfiusummm.... to try and correct some of the numerous errors about his father ,because if the god in the early parts of the OT was indeed Jesus' father ' the fruit fell a LONG way away from the tree'.
Why exactly would Jesus need a written OT if He had been there when the prophets wrote what they wrote? I'm unclear on this.
Originally posted by frogstompIn the OT, the Jews were under a direct theocracy of God. He instilled laws to keep men from dying in their sin and if they broke the Law they were punished. After Jesus came, we just have to put faith in Him and not in ourselves, and God can forgive us.
ummm.... to try and correct some of the numerous errors about his father ,because if the god in the early parts of the OT was indeed Jesus' father ' the fruit fell a LONG way away from the tree'.
Originally posted by DarfiusLike i said before ordering Joshua to put children to the sword is an evil deed . indeed.
In the OT, the Jews were under a direct theocracy of God. He instilled laws to keep men from dying in their sin and if they broke the Law they were punished. After Jesus came, we just have to put faith in Him and not in ourselves, and God can forgive us.
Even the story of adam and eve reveals a mean spirited god ,,just imagine poor adam and eve couldnt possible have known eating that fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil was wrong until AFTER they ate it.
Originally posted by pcaspianI did ignore your post which had a slew of sayings from St. Paul as he was not Jesus and I was discussing the teachings of Jesus. As stated in my other posts, I do not accept the writings of others has of equal authority as the words of Jesus in the Gospels for "Christian" dogma. Jesus was Christ, not Paul.
[b/]Originally posted by no1marauder
First off, you will note that when Jesus is listing the commandments that must be kept to earn eternal life, He omits those like "Have no other Gods before me" and states only those which c ...[text shortened]... rtant commands are. Love your God then Love your fellow man.
pc
I find John Gill's point regarding the ommision of certain commandments utterly unconvincing; I doubt very much if some commandments were "more known" than others. He whole argument is a mere rationalization without a Scriptural basis to meet interpretations like mine which are based on Jesus' EXACT words.
I ignored nothing; the comment regarding perfection was in specific response to the question of the rich man: how do I gain eternal life? Jesus again answered the question specifically. Gill's arguments are again speculative and not based on the text. Pretty clearly Jesus was speaking of the requirements that this man of wealth would have to meet. You conveniently ignore the entire rest of the passage: how difficult it will be for ANY rich man to get to heaven (because they will not be willing to part with their riches to aid their fellow man) and how the disciples point out that they have given everything to follow him. Jesus approvingly notes this. Gill again adds speculative elements which are in this case directly CONTRADICTED by the text which adds a semi-colon between the giving to the poor and "follow me". Jesus' mission, of course, was to spread his message of charity and love towards your fellow man and Jesus Himself did acts of mercy such as healing the sick.
I find nothing contradictory about showing your love of a merciful and loving God by being merciful and loving towards his creations, your fellow man. I believe that this is the core of Jesus' teaching, not the fire and brimstone almost everybody is damned theology that people like Darfius have created and falsely put his name on.
I would like your opinion on Matthew 25 which clearly states that on Judgment Day man will be judged on how he treated his fellow man.
Originally posted by DarfiusYou may say whatever you want; but don't say you're a Christian when you reject Jesus' words. And you are the second "Christian" (after RBHILL) I ever "met" who told a deliberate lie about Jesus' words; his was the Jesus discussed hell more than Heaven (not true as even the slightest glance at the Gospels tells you) and yours was the whopper that Matthew 25 said ANYTHING about faith. Would you like to retract that statement?
I never said loving your fellow man was wrong, no1. I said believing your good works get you into heaven (like most every religion in the world does) is wrong, and only faith in what God has already done for us (unique to Christianity) can wash away your sins.