Originally posted by pcaspianMy point is this, pcaspian: a man cannot know whether another man will be granted salvation or not. That is God's will, not man's. Jesus said he could not judge as a man and neither could anyone in the crowd cast the first stone. How could the metaphor be clearer?
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b] Is Jesus speaking in Romans? No, he ain't. You are adding words to Jesus' own; He says with God all things are possible NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS.
I think the point Darf was trying to make was that all things are possible for God, but He has already stated that He won't be doing some of these. For exam ...[text shortened]... ng is impossible for God, but demanding party trick after party trick is taking the piss really.[/b]
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI am actually crying right now from laughter. This is a first here at RHP!
I can barely wrap my mind around everything that is funny about it simultaneously. I have to consider its amusing aspects in sequence only, lest I suffer a mental overload.
Originally posted by no1marauder
Don't make me laugh. You are the one disrespecting Jesus by turning his message upside down; His message is love and charity to your brother resulting in salvation for your good works.
No1, The scriptures support the view on many occasions that man will not be saved by his deeds, but that his salvation will instead cause him to perform these good deeds. I believe this may be what Darf was trying to convey and it is scripturally sound.
Luke 6:37: 37 And judge not, and ye shall not be judged: and condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: release, and ye shall be released:
You are correct. Except where judgement comes from within the church. Judgement in this light however is preaching to the unbelievers about how their sins are wrong. That is entirely pointless, for whether they sin or do not sin, if they have not accepted Christ, doesn't matter. For that reason there is no point in trying to judge a non-Christian. Stating to an unbeliever that Christ is the path to salvation, is a perfectly acceptable however.
pc
Originally posted by no1marauder
My point is this, pcaspian: a man cannot know whether another man will be granted salvation or not. That is God's will, not man's. Jesus said he could not judge as a man and neither could anyone in the crowd cast the first stone. How could the metaphor be clearer?
I agree no1. Well, to a certain extent. It is God's judgement, however He specifically tells us that Jesus is the only path to salvation. i.e: The bridge. If someone states that they will not use the bridge, then from a Christian point of view, we can categorically state (although whether neccesary or not) that if he sticks to his word, he will not reach the other side.
Originally posted by pcaspianI do not believe that message IS Scripturally sound at all. What was the message to the rich man - you know "the camel through the eye of a needle" story? Let me find it and I'll get back.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b] Don't make me laugh. You are the one disrespecting Jesus by turning his message upside down; His message is love and charity to your brother resulting in salvation for your good works.
No1, The scriptures support the view on many occasions that man will not be saved by his deeds, but that his salvation ...[text shortened]... to an unbeliever that Christ is the path to salvation, is a perfectly acceptable however.
pc[/b]
I think the moral of the story of the adulterer is crystal clear without the add-ons you have made and is consistent with what I have said. Be back.
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't think you want to post the rich man story, no1. I also don't think you want to address my post about MLK.
I do not believe that message IS Scripturally sound at all. What was the message to the rich man - you know "the camel through the eye of a needle" story? Let me find it and I'll get back.
I think the moral of the story of the adulterer is crystal clear without the add-ons you have made and is consistent with what I have said. Be back.
Why do you fear Jesus as the Jews did, no1? Simply call Him Lord and believe He rose from the dead and you will be saved.
Simple.
Originally posted by RBHILLWhere do you come up with this crap? The Catholic Church doesn't claim to be God on Earth. They have the Pope who is their spiritual leader. You sound like one of those Jerry Falwell fools who think they are true Christians whille walking around like a bunch of "bobble head" dolls while he preaches his hate and dribble.
Talk about blasphemy, the Catholic Church claims to be God on earth know that is blasphemy.
Originally posted by no1marauderno1, there are too many scriptures that state the opposite to believe that salvation is a result of your good deeds.
I do not believe that message IS Scripturally sound at all. What was the message to the rich man - you know "the camel through the eye of a needle" story? Let me find it and I'll get back.
I think the moral of the story of the adulterer is crystal clear without the add-ons you have made and is consistent with what I have said. Be back.
I've just copied and pasted, but it should give you a good background.
pc
http://dianedew.com/salvatn.htm
1. We are justified by faith alone, not by "good works."
Acts 13:38, 39; Romans 4:2-6
Romans 9:11 " ... not of works, but of him that calleth"
Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Galatians 3:1-25
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Ephesians 2:8, 9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Philippians 3:9 "... not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."
2 Timothy 1:9 "... not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace..."
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us ..."
Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did ..."
a. The doctrine of salvation by works is based on apocryphal writings
(i.e., Tobit 12:8) rejected from the canon of scripture. It is not scriptural.
b. Keeping the commandments of the Law never made anyone perfect.
Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 7:19, 22; 9:9, 10; 10:1
c. Paul scolded the Galatian church for having fallen from grace and set ting
about to establish their own righteousness. Galatians 3:1-25
2. Salvation is purely by grace (the "unmerited kindness and favor of God"😉.
Psalms 106:6-8
Isaiah 52:3 "For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money."
Romans 3:20, 24, 27, 28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight... being justified freely by his grace ... Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay; but by the law of faith.. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 4:4, 6, 16 "Now to him that worketh is the reward nor reckoned of grace, but of debt.... Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.... Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace ..."
Romans 9:11, 16 "... that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"
Romans 10:3, 4 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace..."
Galatians 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Galatians 5:3, 4 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
Ephesians 2:5, 8, 9; Titus 2:11; 3:5
Originally posted by pcaspianI will quote the "rich man" story in my next post, but I note that not a single one of those citations is from the mouth of Jesus. I would think a Christian would rely first and foremost on the words of Jesus. The Gospels are absolutely filled with admonitions to perform good works as a prerequiste to salvation; I'll post the rich men story which I believe strongly supports that premise and then find others.
no1, there are too many scriptures that state the opposite to believe that salvation is a result of your good deeds.
I've just copied and pasted, but it should give you a good background.
pc
http://dianedew.com/salvatn.htm
1. We are justified by faith alone, not by "good works."
Acts 13:38, 39; Romans 4:2-6
Romans 9: ...[text shortened]... ou are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
Ephesians 2:5, 8, 9; Titus 2:11; 3:5
Originally posted by no1marauder
I will quote the "rich man" story in my next post, but I note that not a single one of those citations is from the mouth of Jesus. I would think a Christian would rely first and foremost on the words of Jesus. The Gospels are absolutely filled with admonitions to perform good works as a prerequiste to salvation; I'll post the rich men story which I believe strongly supports that premise and then find others.
no1. We tend not to consider certain accounts of Jesus as less valid if not spoken directly by Him. Either way, I ask that you not only try and prove me wrong, but attempt to take both arguments into consideration, what I have posted and what your reply will be. For if we merely post something to support our view we may well not be learning. I don't mind you trying to prove me wrong, but I would like you to consider what I have posted.
pc
Matthew 19: 16-22
And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
First off, you will note that when Jesus is listing the commandments that must be kept to earn eternal life, He omits those like "Have no other Gods before me" and states only those which concern our relationships with other people. I find this a curious thing to do IF the ONLY path to salvation is through the worship of a particular God. I would submit this as proof that our salvation in Jesus' eyes depends on how we treat others i.e. good works.
But at the critical point the mere keeping of the commandments isn't enough either, for this man is rich. So Jesus tells him that BEFORE the rich man can follow him he must "sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor". Jesus will not merely accept his following Him WITHOUT that good work and sacrifice. If merely faith was sufficient, as Darfius as said, and THEN good works come from your faith, Jesus would have told him to follow immediately.
That's how I interpret it and the Sermon on the Mount and other parts of the Gospels, including several parables, support the interpretation that Jesus was first and foremost concerned with how people treated their fellow man.