Calling out ThinkOfOne

@fmf said
So for you, your belief in Jesus does not guarantee "salvation"? Indeed, you may be a believer who is going to "end up in Hell" if your living out of the notion of being "right with God through Jesus Christ" falls short in some way, is that right?

Not what I said.

@fmf said
I'd prefer for you to go through them. I think you will agree with more than 10 or them or indeed all 14 perhaps. SecondSon is dodging them too. Why would you both be so evasive?

I answered you it is a lot simpler than you are making it out to be.

@fmf said
Is this you sending a message to SecondSon through me?

No

@kellyjay said
Not what I said.

Is it possible that you are a believer who is going to "end up in Hell" for not being "right with God through Jesus Christ"? Or is it impossible?

@kellyjay said
I answered you it is a lot simpler than you are making it out to be.

You didn't really talk about the torture/torment. You dodged it. Best for you to go through the 14 rather than riff on other things. For example:

1: Non-believers are thrown into a Lake of Fire.

You'd say that you agree BUT as follows:

1: Non-believers ~ and some believers too ~ are thrown into a Lake of Fire.

Right?

What about No.2?

@kellyjay said
People attempt to sugarcoat this, it is as bad as it sounds, and is so for the full
duration of time.

If SecondSon believes people are not conscious of the suffering, do you think he is trying to sugarcoat the torture/torment?

@fmf said
You didn't really talk about the torture/torment. You dodged it. Best for you to go through the 14 rather than riff on other things. For example:

1: Non-believers are thrown into a Lake of Fire.

You'd say that you agree BUT as follows:

1: Non-believers ~ and some believers too ~ are thrown into a Lake of Fire.

Right?

What about No.2?

The book of Rev was written to people who were going to take it as written. Issues show up when its not taken at face value. If it says torment the simplest truth is it means torment changing to suit us isn’t advised with this book seeing how it is was written, compared to the rest.

@fmf said
I'd prefer for you to go through them. I think you will agree with more than 10 or them or indeed all 14 perhaps. SecondSon is dodging them too. Why would you both be so evasive?

I do not possibly know how you can stand by those as some kind of good characterization of the situation. They are literally overlapping & repeating in addition to being so loaded as to be misleading even when there is a grain of truth in them.

It'd be much more productive to ask people to describe what they believe themselves.

But what do you expect out of a guy who makes up offensive, aggravating names for common doctrines just to annoy & irritate people?

@kellyjay said
The book of Rev was written to people who were going to take it as written. Issues show up when its not taken at face value. If it says torment the simplest truth is it means torment changing to suit us isn’t advised with this book seeing how it is was written, compared to the rest.

So you take the 7-headed beast with 10 horns and the whore riding the other beast and horsemen of the apocalypse all at face value do you? You are so full of it KellyJay.

1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire.

I do not believe that it makes no difference whether we receive Christ or reject Christ.
Some hold a belief that it doesn't matter.

~ 2: Here, they are made to suffer for eternity.

Some believe it doesn't matter if you reject God.
They think there is none.

And if there is, they assume the eternal state of those who reject Him is likely to be the same blessed state of those who receive Him, or else God is not good.

~ 3: This is punishment and revenge for their lack of faith and belief in the Christian God/Jesus.

Some people believe that it doesn't matter if there is God and one is in rebellion against Him.
If there are negative consequences for not being reconciled to God, God must not be good.

~ 4: They have 'failed to believe' that they were forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection.

Some people don't believe that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself". In other words they totally under appreciate Who it was who died on that cross under the wrath of divine judgment for their sakes.

Thier thoughts may be - " After all, many people were crucified. What is so special about the Son of God being crucified?"

~ 5: This lack of belief and failure are unforgivable.

Some people fail to see that God forgives only in a way that the forgiven realize that it cost Him something to do so.
They expect that if God has a plan of saving the sinner, any old plan will due just as long as they are saved.

They don't see God in essence saying to the universe "Reconciling you to Me may seem free. But it costs Me something to reconcile you. "

~ 6: In Hell/The Lake of Fire they are not destroyed and they are not allowed to die in order to escape the flames. They are conscious. They are tormented by the flames.

Some people don't realize Who it was who died there in their place under the unimaginable wrath of God.
They assume that if it matters to God then God must not be good.

~ 7: This torture is everlasting.

Some people feel that death is an escape from God's punishment.
They assume that if there is God it doesn't matter if they are never reconciled to God because by His own design they will not exist in any way once they die.

The saved are destined to become more and more like Christ.
Maybe the reconciled rebel doesn't realize that they will become more and more like their leader - Satan.

The words of warning about being saved came mostly from the same mouth that spoke the greatest words of love, forgiveness, patience, longsuffering, understanding, pardon. From the same Person came tremendous words of great kindness on one hand yet severity on the other.

It is not as if a loving and kind Jesus spoke all things we want to hear but mean people invented an evil Jesus to say things no one wants to hear.

The same Person spoke both ultimate words of love and forgiveness and ultimate words of judgment and punishment.

To them those who take both aspects of His message are not good people.
Good people, to them, would only believe that Jesus spoke only things we love to hear.

~ 8: The still living Jesus and some angels look on - for eternity - as all these non-Christians suffer in the flames.

It should be no surprise that God would be aware of everything, everywhere, forever.

~ 9: This punishment is for unforgiven sins and is perfect justice and the ultimate morality.

Some people think an ultimate God could only be ultimate in things we like.
Some of us realize that there must be something as an ultimate offense.

~ 10: Lack of Christian belief makes a person a willing participant in the rebellion against God of a supernatural figure called Satan.

Lack of Christ living within leaves the whole world in the wicked one.

Normal is Christ. The world has sunken far below what God intended as normal.
The perfect life of Christ is what God meant by human being originally.

He will not give up His original eternal intention.
We just have to realize how far we sunk in our being joined to God's enemy.

~ 11: Everyone should fear God's wrath and choose to believe the Jesus story.

Everyone should come to Jesus a living Person.
How you come is secondary. That you come to Him is most important.

Not all the stories of men and women turning to Jesus involve their doing so because of fear of eternal punishment.

~ 12: Christians who believe all these things, and who believe that their sins have been forgiven BECAUSE they believe all these things, go to Heaven.

In Christ a living Person is the place of safety. This is an organic union with an unusual Man yet a real man - a Godman. In the sphere of union with Him is salvation.

God's eternal destiny is more of a Person, Jesus Christ (to be conformed to His image) rather than a place - Heaven.

Obviously taking your fallen nature to Heaven won't do. Salvation in the NT is spoken in terms of being conformed to the image of the Son of God, to become like Him.

The collective entity of millions or billions of those saved is called "New Jerusalem". She is depicted as a Bride that matches Christ and a Wife the will be one with Christ forever.

~ 13: God created billions and billions of human beings with the explicit foreknowledge that they would adhere to other religions and traditions and, as a consequence, be subjected to everlasting torture in this way.

Some people feel that they can reject Christ hiding behind the matter of multi-cultural world.
While we may not know exactly how God will judge difficult cases, we believe that He cannot be unjust.

Early in the Bible in Genesis 18 is the case of Abraham questioning God and Him knowing who is culpable and who is not. Though Abraham is not told everything he embraces a belief that surely the Judge of all the world will do justly.

I take my queue from Abraham. Do not use not knowing all the facts as a reason to reject God's salvation.
I am sure the knowledge a person has somehow will be involved in the last judgment.

I expect to be shocked in the end at the infinite wisdom of God rather than disappointed.
I expect not a mouth will be able to open up in protest before God in the end.

Every mouth will be shut at the realization that He cannot err.

~ 14: But, because of 'free will', those billions of people who do go to Hell, they send themselves there knowingly and wilfully, even if they do not believe in the torturer god and do not subscribe to the torturer god ideology.

The safety is in being IN the Person of Christ.
Mental agreement may not put you in Christ Whom you should receive.

Hoping that one's righteousness will exceed God's so that fault can be located in Him is a lost hope doomed to failure.

Prepare to be shocked at how just God is rather than hope you'll be able to argue Him into realizing His imperfection as compare to yours.

To argue with God is to argue with the One who endowed man with the ability to argue at all.
To expect to be able to show God is incompetent as compared to you at the last judgment, I think will fail.

Probably, to go where you are assigned will bring a strong sense of eternal closure, even though one may be punished in that closure.

@philokalia said
It'd be much more productive to ask people to describe what they believe themselves.

I have. I've been here talking to sonship and others for a decade, That's where I got the 14 elements of the ideology from.

@sonship said

1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire.

I do not believe that it makes no difference whether we receive Christ or reject Christ.
Some hold a belief that it doesn't matter.

OK, so, to condense it down a bit:

1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire.

So, your double negative aside, that's a 'sonship agrees'.

2: Here, they are made to suffer for eternity.

Despite you talking about something else, I take it that it's another 'sonship agrees'.

3: This is punishment and revenge for their lack of faith and belief in the Christian God/Jesus.

Again, you talk about what "some people believe" and you clearly disagree with them, so that's a 'sonship agrees' for No.3.

4: They have 'failed to believe' that they were forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection.

This time you talk about what "some people don't believe" and you clearly do not agree with them, so I score that as another 'sonship agrees' for No.4.

5: This lack of belief and failure are unforgivable.

That's a 'sonship agrees' for No.5

6: In Hell/The Lake of Fire they are not destroyed and they are not allowed to die in order to escape the flames. They are conscious. They are tormented by the flames.

That's another 'sonship agrees' for No.6

7: This torture is everlasting.

This time you talk about what "some people feel" and indicate that you do not agree with them, so that's a 'sonship agrees' for No.7.

8: The still living Jesus and some angels look on - for eternity - as all these non-Christians suffer in the flames.

That's a 'sonship agrees' for No.8.

9: This punishment is for unforgiven sins and is perfect justice and the ultimate morality.

'Sonship agrees' for No.9.

10: Lack of Christian belief makes a person a willing participant in the rebellion against God of a supernatural figure called Satan.

You dodged this one [No.10] on this occasion. And yet you must have made this claim to me dozens of times over the last ten years.

11: Everyone should fear God's wrath and choose to believe the Jesus story.

This is a 'sonship agrees' for No.11 with the proviso that it need not be the primary reason for believing the Jesus story.

12: Christians who believe all these things, and who believe that their sins have been forgiven BECAUSE they believe all these things, go to Heaven.

This is a 'sonship agrees' for No.12 I think although you tried to smother it in unecessary repetition of dogma you have trotted out many times before.

13: God created billions and billions of human beings with the explicit foreknowledge that they would adhere to other religions and traditions and, as a consequence, be subjected to everlasting torture in this way.

No.13 was all that stuff you typed an 'agree' or a 'disagree'?

14: But, because of 'free will', those billions of people who do go to Hell, they send themselves there knowingly and wilfully, even if they do not believe in the torturer god and do not subscribe to the torturer god ideology.

I take that as a 'sonship agrees' for No.14.

@philokalia said
They are literally overlapping & repeating in addition to being so loaded as to be misleading even when there is a grain of truth in them.

They are cogently delivered encapsulations of the elements of the torturer god ideology that I have encountered here for many years. You are free to disagree.

@philokalia said
But what do you expect out of a guy who makes up offensive, aggravating names for common doctrines just to annoy & irritate people?

The term "torturer god ideology" is accurate and to-the-point. It refers to the most depraved ideology the human imagination has ever stooped to.

@kellyjay said
The book of Rev was written to people who were going to take it as written. Issues show up when its not taken at face value. If it says torment the simplest truth is it means torment changing to suit us isn’t advised with this book seeing how it is was written, compared to the rest.

OK, thanks. So that's...

2: Here, they are made to suffer for eternity. You agree.

What about No.3?

3: This is punishment and revenge for their lack of faith and belief in the Christian God/Jesus.

You have said this to me many times although it is sonship - and not you - who uses the words "revenge" and "vengeance". I can offer version 2 for you:

3: This is punishment is the consequence of their lack of faith and belief in the Christian God/Jesus.

Agree?