Certainly not a simple doctrine.

-Removed-

Yes and 10,000 Elvis fans cannot be wrong either!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes and 10,000 Elvis fans cannot be wrong either!

Why not? 10,000 Boro fans were.

😉

Originally posted by JS357
Isn't this why Faith is a theological virtue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum

Sounds reasonable that faith is a theological virtue. How is that relevant though?

Originally posted by RBHILL
How about john ch. 1:1-14 as well? When you read the whole Bible Chronologically you start here and not Genesis ch. 1.

I seem to have missed your point. Can you elaborate?

-Removed-

I get your point, and you are in effect supporting the idea is that the whole thing is not easy to understand from a purely human point of view.

However your claim that it is the same person conflicts with eveything in the opening post about Christ was 'made', that Christ is the Son and God is his Father, that God has elevated him above the angels. Not to mention all the passages where things are known to God but not to Christ or the many times Christ said to pray to God and not to him. Seems to me that they have separate and distinct functions.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
During the Incarnation the humanity of Christ became lower than the angels; then through His resurrection, ascension and session became higher than the angels. (Hebrews 1:4, 2:9) The crucifixion had to precede His glorification*.

Edit Footnote: *Undiminished Deity and Perfect Humanity in One Person forever.

Higher than the angels but not equal to God in my estimation. Still under Gods subjection according the Bible.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It is absolutely crystal clear.

1. Jesus was a created entity - Colossians 1:15,16
2. Father and son is simply the description of a relationship.
3. The term god simply means a might spiritual (sometimes human) entity. We have been preconditioned to think of it in terms of a deity, the Bible uses both. Its use does not necessitate that it is m ...[text shortened]... ore all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist. - Colossians 1:16

While I agree with most of that I would not agree with the implication that sometimes come across from the JWs that this is a matter that affects ones salvation.

Originally posted by sonship

In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

This speaks of the incarnation of God as a man to be our Rede ...[text shortened]... or over three years now that is exactly what I have been doing. Don't you know Me yet Phillip ?"

This passage:

Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:8,9)

.. cannot be interpreted to mean that God and Christ are not separate and distinct entities, because the Bible is even clearer that you CANNOT SEE GOD

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

and again

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.

Christ in speaking to Philip about knowing the will of God because he has seen Christ and he knows Christ. Those who know Christ are aware of Christ commandments and the sons of God follow Christ's commandments and therefore they indirectly know God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
While I agree with most of that I would not agree with the implication that sometimes come across from the JWs that this is a matter that affects ones salvation.

The issue has nothing to do with Jehovahs witnesses.

-Removed-

You made a fallacious argument, that being that just because people are debating an issue necessitates that the issue is somehow not crystal clear. This is not the case for so many reasons, wilful ignorance being just one example.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Why not? 10,000 Boro fans were.

😉

I hope Paul Lambert takes a team like Plymouth Argyll into the premiership and they relegate you back down by giving you a spanking on the last day of the season.