@divegeester saidI was going to say something to be funny, but I knew what you meant. 😛
This should have read “denomination” not “demonisation”
Sorry
@sonship saidYou get more engagement from FMF and myself than all of the other posters put together. I suspect that many of the challenges either FMF or myself bring to your threads are also on the minds of other readers who either don’t want to appear to be aligned with one of us, or simply don’t care whatever it is you are waffling on about.
I have not yet paid serious attention to posts of Divegeester or FMF because I know that they only wish to be cynically contrarian, And the SAME contrarian posters gets old to me. They always follow me around and are usually the first to put in their contrarian, cynical, innuendos.
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@secondson saidJohn 3:13 makes clear Enoch wasn't raptured to heaven.
Sir, can you clarify the point you're making?
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John 3:13 makes clear Enoch wasn't raptured to heaven.
Some interpret that way.
As for me, this is what I wrote about Enoch, not specifically stating exactly WHERE God took him. For I don't know.
Enoch walked with God in the Old Testament.
Suddenly Enoch could not be found anywhere.
God vindicated Enoch by snatching him off of the earth.
He was raptured.
Like Enoch was not found because he walked with God, so those heeding to go on the learn to walk in Christ will be taken.
Remember Enoch who walked with God.
We must through patience and practice learn to be like Enoch who was taken by God off the scene because he walked with God every day.
As for me I didn't specify exactly where Enoch was taken, did I ?
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidOf course, some Christians will dance around accepting this.
John 3:13 makes clear Enoch wasn't raptured to heaven.
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Of course, some Christians will dance around accepting this.
So maybe he wasn't taken to Heaven. Its a side point that I don't think is all that important. to me right now.
Moving on?
It is interesting that the exhortation to watch and be ready was given to the church in Sardis. If it was automatic that any saint meeting with the church is Sardis, a local church, would be raptured (as Divegeester's innuendo hinted I was teaching) THEN there would have been no need for Christ to WARN any Christian there.
It pays to read the Bible for yourself carefully rather than be influenced by would be "GOTCHA!" questions.
"Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent.
If therefore you will not watch I will come as a thief and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you." (Rev. 3:3)
Automatic rapture JUST BECAUSE a saint met in a local church (one church for one city - (Sardis) doesn't seem to be guaranteed, does it ?
I think we should take the warnings individualistically.
Ie.
"Whoever seeks to preserve HIS soul-life will lose it, and whoever losses it will preserve it alive.
I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed, the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other will be left." (Luke 17:33-36)
Now don't misunderstand me. It would be glorious if an entire local assembly of believers were raptured together because all are walking in the Spirit diligently. But the warning here is aimed at the individual responsibility of each believer.
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So when the first secretive rapture occurs the majority of Christians on the earth will be caught by surprise and left on the earth.
But they are still eternally secure in their salvation.
If we are Christians neglecting to learn to feed upon Jesus and walk in Jesus at that time, don't you think we will consider the error of our ways if other Christians are suddenly removed ?
This removal of the watching and ready will be God manifesting His approval of their daily living. Arguments will be over. Jesus Christ has made known who He found overcoming and watching and who was seen defeated and befuddled by the world.
Then the majority of Christians on earth surely will seek revival. For they will notice that they are on the cusp of the turning of the age.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThat is correct.
John 3:13 makes clear Enoch wasn't raptured to heaven.
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Took Enoch where?
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John 3:13 makes clear Enoch wasn't raptured to heaven.
Whether Enoch was raptured to Heaven or not may be a debate to have.
But where the saints will be raptured BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation is heaven. We are told that they are raptured to Heaven.
We are told that living overcoming Christians will be raptured to Heaven in Revelation 14. And we are told that their corresponding brethren who DIED before that age, yet who led overcoming lives, will also be rapture to Heaven. This we are told in Revelation 12.
The LIVING overcoming saints - Raptured to Heaven (Revelation 14)
The DECEASED overcoming saints - Raptured to Heaven (Revelation 12).
Details below.
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But before we talk about where the Christian who are overcomers go PHYSICALLY it is so important to realize their INWARD condition.
Rapture is for God to take a person physically where her or his INWARD spirit and heart is ALREADY.
This means RAPTURE may not be all that much of a surprise if one is ALREADY walking in a heavenly atmosphere in the Holy Spirit while on earth.
These passages show that on earth the normal Christian life should be as IF it was in Heaven already though we are on earth.
"If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. " (Col. 3:1,2)
You see? Why are there two grinding at the mill and one is taken and one is not? Both may be saved Christians. But one has her mind set on the things above where Christ is. By faith her heart is with Christ exalted in the heavens at the right hand of God.
Even though the daily duties and responsibilities are being taken care of, the mind of the one taken is set on the things which are above already. Apparently, the mind of the other has not practiced to be set on the things where Christ is.
Outwardly men can hardly see any difference. But Christ sees a difference. And one will be taken to where her heart already is set. And the other will be left to where her heart is already distracted in neglect of the Spirit indwelling her.
Your mind is in heaven daily. So it is that God suddenly will remover your instantly glorified body to be where your heart abides already.
Can you all see this ?
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Notice that Jesus did not say two will be praising and singing in a church meeting. He will COULD have said that. But His emphasis is more on two taking care of their typical daily activities.'
It is not from Jesus - "Two will be singing hymns" or "Two will be witnessing from door to door" or "Two will be worshipping in praise on Sunday".
It is two on a bed.
It is two working in the field.
It is two grinding.
The grinding and the field work are daily practical activities.
The being on a bed pertains to rest or sleep.
This proves that even as we are at leisure or sleeping we must learn to set our mind on the Holy Spirit. We need the word of God stored up in our hearts to work and even rest or sleep with the mind set on the things above where Christ is.
It is almost involuntary and spontaneous. Even in sleeping there is SOME amount of self control. One's mind is set on Christ.
How serious preparation for being taken in rapture is.
IT is serious yet ENJOYABLE and pertinent to a man or woman's daily activities.
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You’re dead right there!
Nor is “secretive” in the bible.
The basis for believing in the SECRET nature of the early rapture is the fact that the time is UNKNOWN to Christians - thus a secret.
And they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW ON WHAT DAY YOUR LORD COMES. "(Matt. 24:39-42)
So the phrase "secret rapture" pertains to the sudden unexpected time of this catching away of the vigilant believers.
Jesus goes on to show that if the Christian had KNOWN the secret of the time of His coming, he would not be caught unaware.
"But know this, that if the householder had KNOWN in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (Matt. 24:43,44)
Why now do some Bible students refer to this as a "secret rapture" ?
The Christian has to supplement his ignorance of the time with vigilance.
The saints who have died VIGILANT will be raptured pre-tribulation also with some living ones. In principle these who died in ages past LIVED a vigilant life as if Jesus would come upon them even though they died before that event.
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EIther soon after the early secret rapture or around that time, the Antichrist will be manifested.
After a minority of Christians here and there around the world have been removed, it will no longer be a secret in that regard.
Soon afterward or even perhaps around the same time the Antichrist will be blaspheming God. He may brag and say "We're glad that those Christians are gone. We didn't want them on earth anyway. Now WE the followers of Satan will have the earth to ourselves."
This will soon be the situation surrounding the Christians left on the earth.
The mistake made by many was that they ASSUMED rapture before the Great Tribulation was guaranteed the entire Church on earth. They assumed that all would go up with Christ together.
But the careful examination of the Pre-Tribulation verses reveal CONDITIONS, They reveal the need to COOPERATE. The need to WATCH, and be READY, and to WALK in the Spirit in daily life is evident.
Any belief that the entire body of Christians on the earth will be rapture Pre-Tribulation is superficial. It is bordering on superstitious. There will be great shock and disappointment.
But afterwards when the Great Tribulation is now upon the dwellers on the earth, to attend to God's will for each believer will be of utmost importance.
I predict that at THAT TIME and not before, the great revival among Christians will occur.
It will be aided by the fact that Antichrist is out to destroy Christiandom. And God will permit him to do so.
@sonship said"So when the first secretive rapture occurs the majority of Christians on the earth will be caught by surprise and left on the earth.
So when the first secretive rapture occurs the majority of Christians on the earth will be caught by surprise and left on the earth.
But they are still eternally secure in their salvation.
If we are Christians neglecting to learn to feed upon Jesus and walk in Jesus at that time, don't you think we will consider the error of our ways if other Christians are suddenly re ...[text shortened]... surely will seek revival. For they will notice that they are on the cusp of the turning of the age.
But they are still eternally secure in their salvation."
This is where you lose me sonship.
1. First secretive rapture? There's no secret. I don't see how it's a secret. We know it will happen. We just don't know when. There's no first or second or third rapture. There's only one.
2. Majority of Christians? You make it sound as though there are classes of Christians. There are not. All born again spirit filled believers are members of the same body. The Church, The Body of Christ, are all one in Christ. When the trumpet blows we all go to meet the Lord at the same time. The dead in Christ first, and then we who are alive at that same moment.
I have not seen in the scriptures anything about more than a single rapture. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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This is where you lose me sonship.
I think you mean I lose you when I say those Christians left on earth after the first rapture are still eternally saved.
Let's put it under the microscope.
1. First secretive rapture? There's no secret. I don't see how it's a secret. We know it will happen. We just don't know when. There's no first or second or third rapture. There's only one.
You correct that we know such an event will happen. Jesus told us so in Matt.24:38-44 and in Luke 17:31-37. But WHEN this will happen He withholds that we may LIVE vigilantly.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
For this reason you also be ready, BECAUSE IN AN HOUR WHEN YOU DO NOT EXPECT IT, the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 24,43,44)
His arrival to snatch some away is the arrival of a "thief" to remove something precious. Those vigilant are precious treasure to the Lord.
Of course ALL the saved are precious to the Lord. But those who are normal in living by His grace are call those who overcome. He comes at a time UNEXPECTED and UNANNOUNCED to "steal" them (so to speak).