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@sonship saidWhy does your particular brand of faith lack humility?
@divegeester
What on earth are you on about?
Believing in the precious promises of God is not taking on a egotistical "superior mindset."
Its just trust and faith in God.
Which denomination did you say the church in Jerusalem was ?
Which denomination did you say the church in Philippi was ?
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Awe man you don't know the half of my pride. I am really proud.
But I know where to go to find help and grace and mercy you see - Jesus, the living Savior.
You see Christians are not perfect. But we have access to the Perfect One to save us from ourselves.
But if you want to say I need a whole lot more of Jesus, you'll get no argument from me. You're right.
@sonship saidWhat you promote and preach in here is not the “precious promises of God”. What you do is promote YOU, yourself, your cultish denomination and it’s beliefs. You venerate your leader and your teachings vilifies other denominations ~ hence my question in this thread which you refuse to answer.
@divegeester
What on earth are you on about?
Believing in the precious promises of God is not taking on a egotistical "superior mindset."
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@sonship saidDoes this pride emanate from being told by Witness Lee that you are a God?
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Awe man you don't know the half of my pride. I am really proud.
But I know where to go to find help and grace and mercy you see - Jesus, the living Savior.
You see Christians are not perfect. But we have access to the Perfect One to save us from ourselves.
But if you want to say I need a whole lot more of Jesus, you'll get no argument from me. You're right.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
No. Brother Lee told us according to the Bible that we are all in need of Christ's saving unlike the proud unbeliever who cannot even thank God for anything or realize his need before God.
God predestinated to have sons - for a corporate expression of God in humanity.
"God-me" is not a term in the Bible.
But "man of God". (1 Tim. 6:11)
And "sons of God" is. (Gal. 3:26).
And "godliness" is. (1 Tim.2:2; 3:16; 2 Pet. 3:2)
And "partakers of the divine nature" is. (2 Pet. 1:4)
And a corporate " His Body" is. (Eph. 5:30)
And "we will be like Him is. (1 John 3:2)
And "we should be called the children of God" is. (1 John 3:1)
And "Firstborn among many brothers" is. (Rom. 8:29)
And "leading many sons into glory" is. (Hebrews 2:10)
And "dwelling place of God in spirit" is. (Eph. 2:22)
And "when I awake in Your likeness" is. (Psalm 17:15)
And "holy city, New Jerusalem" is. ( Rev. 21:2)
And "bride, adorned for her husband" is. (Rev. 21:2)
And "they will reign forever and ever" is. (Rev. 22:5)
And "authority to become children of God" is. (John 1:12)
And "begotten of God" is. (1 John 5:1)
And "His seed abides in him" is. (1 John 3:9)
And "the children of God" is. (1 John 3:10)
And "partners of the Christ" is. (Hebrews 3:14)
And "Christ our life" is. (Col. 3:4)
And "manifested with Him in glory" is. (Col. 3:4)
And "Christ in you the hope of glory" is. (Col. 1:27)
And "a full grown man" is. (Eph. 4:13)
And "at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" is. (Eph.4:13)
And "we may grow up into Him" is. (Eph. 4:15)
And "full grown in Christ" is. (Col. 1:28)
And "called you to His eternal glory" is. (1 Pet. 5:10).
And "imitators of God" is. (Eph. 5:1)
And "He is not ashamed to call us brothers" is. (Heb. 2:11).
And "for me to live is Christ" is. (Gal. 2:20)
And "holy brothers, partakers of a heavenly calling" is. (Heb. 3:1)
And "now we are the children of God" is. (1 John 3:2)
And "able to save them to the uttermost" is. (Heb. 7:25)
And "sit with Me on My throne" is. (Rev. 3:21)
And "predestinating us unto sonship" is. (Eph. 2:5)
And "filled unto all the fullness of God" is. (Eph. 3:19)
Sorry I have to burst your little bubble. But none of these expressions were invented by Witness Lee. He just pointed them out to the Christian church.
Now if you have no origin but a monkey ancestor and nothing to look forward to but to rot in the ground, don't be jealous. The precious promises are to whosoever believes in Him, the Son of God.
Then you can read the Bible for yourself and notice its full salvation.
I realize that as a pop new atheist the old time religion is a better target for your cynicism. Greek Orthodoxy taught theosis for centuries. And properly understood the New Jerusalem is a collective, a corporate manifestation of God dispensed into man to produce God-men.
@sonship
Nothing in the Gospels suggests that Jesus thought of himself as the founder of a new religion, separate from Judaism. When he said, "Upon this rock I will build my church", referring to Peter, he meant a man. One man, a disciple. He did not mean to found a temporal institution which would come to own property, vast tracts of land, crown kings, wage wars, own tv and radio stations, aspire to tax-exempt status, and keep secret bank accounts. Christianity as it is today is not what Jesus preached or himself embodied (humility) -- Christianity became Churchianity, a long time ago I might add.
The Church is exactly what Jesus preached against when he reviled the Pharisees and the Sadducees: hidebound interpreters of laws and rules.
Probably the only 'sect' around today which Jesus would recognize as "people gathered in his name" are the Quakers, and it speaks volumes that the Quakers have to endure being called a sect.
Well, maybe not. After all, Jesus was the leader of a heretical Jewish sect.
@sonship saidProvide evidence that any soul was ever actually saved by the Church.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Now if you have no origin but a monkey ancestor and nothing to look forward to but to rot in the ground, don't be jealous. The precious promises are to whosoever believes in Him, the Son of God.
Then you can read the Bible for yourself and notice its full salvation.
I realize that as a pop new atheist the old time religion is a better targ ...[text shortened]... w Jerusalem is a collective, a corporate manifestation of God dispensed into man to produce God-men.
Provide evidence that souls actually exist at all.
No? case closed. It's a psychological placebo for people who can't face their own mortality. Nobody ever came back from the dead. You die and stay dead.
@moonbus saidI think it is more likely that Jesus was not referring to Peter at all. It is likely that Jesus was referring to one of two other things in that statement :
@sonship
Nothing in the Gospels suggests that Jesus thought of himself as the founder of a new religion, separate from Judaism. When he said, "Upon this rock I will build my church", referring to Peter, he meant a man. One man, a disciple. He did not mean to found a temporal institution which would come to own property, vast tracts of land, crown kings, wage wars, own tv a ...[text shortened]... alled a sect.
Well, maybe not. After all, Jesus was the leader of a heretical Jewish sect.
1. The Rock is Himself - there is ample evidence in the bible of Jesus being a rock, not Peter [who Jesus call Satan shortly after]
2. The Rock is this doctrine - That Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God
Peter did not proceed to build any church, although the Catholic Church adpoted him as their Saint and used his name to promote their sect. As for this statement .. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19 KJV), can apply to all the Apostles and other true disciples of Christ who kept his commandments.
It is my opinion that both 1, and 2 are applicable -
Jesus is the Rock, and the doctrine that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God is what Jesus's church is founded on
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Nothing in the Gospels suggests that Jesus thought of himself as the founder of a new religion, separate from Judaism.
Did I say Jesus thought of Himself as the founder of a new religion?
He did say He established "the new covenant" .
That "new covenant" was predicted by the prophet Jeremiah.
"Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, declares Jehovah." (Jeremiah 31:31,32)
And here is where Jesus taught that He was establishing that new covenant in His death and resurrection.
"And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the NEW COVENANT established in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (Luke 22:20) .
See also Matt. 26:27,28
"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, For this is My blood of the COVENANT, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
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Cont. with moonbus.
When he said, "Upon this rock I will build my church", referring to Peter, he meant a man. One man, a disciple. He did not mean to found a temporal institution which would come to own property, vast tracts of land, crown kings, wage wars, own tv and radio stations, aspire to tax-exempt status, and keep secret bank accounts. Christianity as it is today is not what Jesus preached or himself embodied (humility) -- Christianity became Churchianity, a long time ago I might add.
I agree that He did not mean to establish a huge world wide religious/ political organization.
But the rock upon which His church is built referred not to Peter but to the revelation that Peter received - that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. That revelation is the rock.
"And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ; the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said, Blessed are you SImon Barjona, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in the heavens. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16: 16-18)
The rock as the foundation of His church is Himself, the Son of the living God, the Christ, which can only be seen by a revelation from the Father.
Of course Peter himself says as much when he points not to himself but to Jesus as the cornerstone of the "spiritual house" living temple of God, His church.
"Coming to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious, You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house . . . " (1 Peter 2:4,5a)
Paul also affirmed that the revelation of Jesus Christ is the only foundation of the Christian church. No one can lay another foundation. No one can make Peter or another servant of God that unique foundation.
"According to the grace of God given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid a foundation, . . . For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST." (see 1 Cor. 3:10,11)
The revelation of Jesus Christ is the foundation of the apostles and prophets.
" . . . but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation pf the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone." (Eph. 2:19b,20)
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cont. with moonbus.
The Church is exactly what Jesus preached against when he reviled the Pharisees and the Sadducees: hidebound interpreters of laws and rules.
The church had not come into existence when He was scolding the Pharisees and the Sadducees. This does not mean that He did not and does not exhort and scold His churches (See Rev. 2,3)[/b].
The church came into existence when the disciples received the Holy Spirit upon Christ resurrecting from the dead. The writer John informs us that when He rose He breathed Himself INTO the disciples as Jesus in another form - the Holy Spirit (or Holy breath). And at that time the new covenant church came into existence.
"Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:21,22)
This gathering of the disciples may be considered the first meeting of the church before Pentecost. When Jesus as the Holy Spirit was breathed into them He entered into man and the new covenant church came into existence.
For Jesus became a divine life giving Spirit.
So "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) that He could enter into man for the bringing about the new covenant church.
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The Quakers are of two main streams I think. One was definitely a step BACK to towards a more orthodox Christian church meeting in the aspect of getting rid of hierarchy and all participants expected to function in the meeting.
That was a positive recovery. The other strain of Quakers left the New Testament and the Gospel for modern philosophy essentially Christ-less. humanistic, pretty agnostic or deist in nature.
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Moonbus is trying to say Jesus did not come to establish the new covenant predicted by Jeremiah the prophet.
But Jesus said the kingdom of God would be taken FROM the nation of Israel as a national entity and given to another nation that that new nation might bear the fruit God sought. This is true at least for a time allotted by God's sovereignty. That different "nation" is the new testament church.
"Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matt. 21:43)
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Provide evidence that any soul was ever actually saved by the Church.
Me. I am in the process of having my soul (mind, emotion, will) saved in Christ's work in me. The universal church would not exist if no one was saved. And some are not only redeemed saved but also undergoing the salvation of their mind, emotion, and will - the soul's salvation.
If no one was ever saved through the preaching of the Gospel then the universal church would not exist at all.
The salvation of the soul is actually the transformation of the soul.
Paul wrote 13 of the 27 NT letters out from his saved and transformed soul.
Provide evidence that souls actually exist at all.
If you have a mind, an emption, and a will then you have a soul.
No?
Since you display a mind, and emotion and a will that is evidence that you possessed a human soul.
I think what you are demanding is that I prove that your soul goes out of existence when your body dies. In other words you want me to prove an non-material entity of YOU that exists when your heart stops beating.
That is difficult in one post to prove.
It may be difficult in many posts to prove.
However, there is something of a continuous YOU as time goes. Though the cells of your body are all changing every seven years or so there is something COINTINUING that is YOU through successive stages. There is a unity of your being remaining YOU through successive turn overs of your physical material.