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10 Nov 21
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I think that is evidence that you are not only material.
You are a non-material soul.
And you also have a non-material human spirit.
All three parts of your being - spirit and soul and body need God's full salvation. If you think you are just material or colliding atoms or only combined molecules and electrical synapsis then you have no free will. And you have no beliefs that you chose. For all beliefs are only the result of fizzing atoms. Then you never really chose to believe truth. You only fizz and bubble with energy that dictates every activity in your whole being.
So because I think you do choose with a choosing will you have a soul.
And you think.
And you like and dislike.
Your emotion, mind, and will are parts of your soul which you freely exercise. They are not just electricity or particles.
case closed. It's a psychological placebo for people who can't face their own mortality. Nobody ever came back from the dead. You die and stay dead.
You have never yet been dead. So you do not know what awaits you.
There is One with authority in that realm - Jesus Christ.
He rose. He caused a few to rise from the dead.
He claims He will cause ALL, EVERYONE, ANYONE, to rise for a rendezvous with God. He acted in a manner which supports those extraordinary claims.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day. " (John 6:44)
Don't put yourself in for a bitter disappointment by imagining the Son of God cannot do that to you.
"Truly, truly. I say to you, An hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son ofg God, and those who hear will live." (John 5:25)
This is to live spiritually. When Jesus comes into your heart you will know that before you knew him you were spiritually dead. Then you heard His voice and you believed to receive Christ as new life. This is reliable.
Then there is the PHYSICAL rising from the dead which you will not be able to wish away or hope away or ignore away or scoff away. You have a rendezvous with being brought back from death even if you should cremate your body. God is able to reassemble you back TOTALLY.
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (v.28,29).
He IS the resurrection and the life.
"Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if he should die, shall live. And everyone who lives and believes into Me shall by no means die forever. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25,26)
Tell the Lord Jesus that you believe and ask Him to help your unbelief.
@moonbus saidI disagree.
@sonship
When he said, "Upon this rock I will build my church", referring to Peter, he meant a man.
I believe there is ample evidence throughout the book of Acts and beyond to support the notion that when Jesus said “and upon this rock I I’ll build my church”, he was referring to the answer Peter had just given him to his preceding question.
“Who do you say that I am?”
Peter replied “I say you are the Christ (anointed one) the son of the living God”.
Jesus said “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father in heaven”
The “rock” Jesus was referring to was himself in terms of the spiritual revelation of who Jesus was. That is the rock on which the church is built. Not on a man.
11 Nov 21
@divegeester saidYour interpretation is interesting and has merit, but the Church of Rome did not see it that way. The Church of Rome claims there was something special about Peter and that Jesus was referring to Peter in this passage of Matthew. Peter founded the Church at Rome and that was the justification for the Roman Church to claim to be the Primary See and the Pope be the primary bishop.
I disagree.
I believe there is ample evidence throughout the book of Acts and beyond to support the notion that when Jesus said “and upon this rock I I’ll build my church”, he was referring to the answer Peter had just given him to his preceding question.
“Who do you say that I am?”
Peter replied “I say you are the Christ (anointed one) the son of the living God” ...[text shortened]... spiritual revelation of who Jesus was. That is the rock on which the church is built. Not on a man.
Personally, I think humanity would have been better off if the Church at Rome had not made the assumption that it was primary among the churches which the disciples founded, but we can't undo 2,000 yrs of history.
@sonship saidOf course I have a mind and feelings, everyone has a mind and feelings. Of course the mind grows and changes over the lifetime of a person and exhibits continuity. There is no doubt that something non-material continues, so long as the body is alive. Of course I am not only material. The mind is not material. But the mind dies when the body dies.
@moonbus
Provide evidence that any soul was ever actually saved by the Church.
Me. I am in the process of having my soul (mind, emotion, will) saved in Christ's work in me. The universal church would not exist if no one was saved. And some are not only redeemed saved but also undergoing the salvation of their mind, emotion, and will - the soul's sal ...[text shortened]... here is a unity of your being remaining YOU through successive turn overs of your physical material.
The idea that your little wisp of ego and your feelings are going to be preserved for all eternity is madness; it makes Donald Trump's narcissism look perfectly sane.
Mind is not the same as soul. People in advanced stages of dementia have very little mind left. People in a coma have no consciousness. Yet they have undiminished souls, the Church claims. Show me evidence that there is something else, other than mind and feelings, about a person which is non-material and survives death, which you call "soul."
Then show me evidence that this imaginary 'something I know not what' was ever saved by the Church.
That you feel saved I do not doubt for an instant. Nor do I doubt that this feeling sustains you in times of distress and despair. That feeling will die with you.
11 Nov 21
@divegeester saidI believe you are correct here dive; it is the profession of faith, not the man, that mattered in that context and the church. I don't care what Rome thinks one way or another.
I disagree.
I believe there is ample evidence throughout the book of Acts and beyond to support the notion that when Jesus said “and upon this rock I I’ll build my church”, he was referring to the answer Peter had just given him to his preceding question.
“Who do you say that I am?”
Peter replied “I say you are the Christ (anointed one) the son of the living God” ...[text shortened]... spiritual revelation of who Jesus was. That is the rock on which the church is built. Not on a man.
11 Nov 21
@moonbus saidThere are many things in your life that you could point to that are limited to the material; as a matter of fact, the material change goes away, and they stay. You have a thought, you write it on your keyboard, the thought is immaterial the action of putting your thought on the keyboard is a matter of you typing. We read and comprehend your thoughts; though we may view them differently than intended, they are still before us. That thought could be taken and moved to several different media; it is still your thought the material that holds it can change, and it can move from different equipment, from electronic to paper in a book; all manner of things can contain your thought.
Of course I have a mind and feelings, everyone has a mind and feelings. Of course the mind grows and changes over the lifetime of a person and exhibits continuity. There is no doubt that something non-material continues, so long as the body is alive. Of course I am not only material. The mind is not material. But the mind dies when the body dies.
The idea that your little ...[text shortened]... ubt that this feeling sustains you in times of distress and despair. That feeling will die with you.
Suppose that since this is true of us, we can reveal how we are thinking about anything. Why couldn't God who spoke the universe into being make something and house it in some bodies of clay in His image and have them mature here before being revealed in an eternal setting instead of this temporary one? The things that transcend the material world are all about us, thoughts, love, meaning, justice, hope, righteousness, good, evil. If these are real, what makes you think you are not also real in the sense that you are much more than just a material body, that the real you, even if your body is damaged, are still the same person?
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11 Nov 21
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Of course I have a mind and feelings, everyone has a mind and feelings. Of course the mind grows and changes over the lifetime of a person and exhibits continuity. There is no doubt that something non-material continues, so long as the body is alive. Of course I am not only material. The mind is not material. But the mind dies when the body dies.
Experientially you do not know WHAT will happen to you the moment you die.
You can say "of course" this or that. But the fact of the matter is you do not know.
It has not occurred to you yet. And no one you know except Christ has spoken with any authority about what to expect.
So you don't know. And you cannot presume any expertise. You cannot say you or any living knows.
Now, I don't KNOW either. And I am persuaded the the AUTHORITY on the matter from His angle of being God incarnate and a man who died and rose is Jesus. My confidence is that His word is to be trusted as His word on many other vital matters of human life.
You choose to disbelieve and time will tell whether that was a wise decision or a foolish one.
The idea that your little wisp of ego and your feelings are going to be preserved for all eternity is madness; it makes Donald Trump's narcissism look perfectly sane.
I am not impressed by this quip. One of the reasons that the Christian gospel spread was because people WITNESSED how these believers died with confidence. Some were thrown to lions. Some were crucified, Some were burned alive.
The saying went out that "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the saints."
How they went to their deaths singing and praising God and not weeping over hurt little egos inspired even at times their executioners that they MUST have had something real. When I read Fox's Book of Martyrs about the persecution of Christians at the hands of the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church I was stroke how the deaths of Christians testified that they knew something they had COULD NOT be destroyed.
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11 Nov 21
Mind is not the same as soul. People in advanced stages of dementia have very little mind left. People in a coma have no consciousness. Yet they have undiminished souls, the Church claims. Show me evidence that there is something else, other than mind and feelings, about a person which is non-material and survives death, which you call "soul."
Evidence is not persuasion.
There is a deeper realm in man than the mind called the human spirit. And though dementia may indeed set in, in a deeper realm it can be known that God is real.
Dementia will not touch that deepest chamber of the being where a man is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Though dementia IS a loss of some facility it is not the end of spiritual regeneration in man's deepest part.
Then show me evidence that this imaginary 'something I know not what' was ever saved by the Church.
Christ saves. The church if faithful announces the saving Gospel.
God does the saving.
The believers of the Christian church do the preaching.
That you feel saved I do not doubt for an instant. Nor do I doubt that this feeling sustains you in times of distress and despair. That feeling will die with you.
You can doubt as much as you feel necessary.
I enjoy the reality of Christ when UP or when DOWN.
I enjoy the love of Christ in prosperity or in lack.
I enjoy the reality of Jesus Christ in all circumstances because without Christ life is empty and vain whether happy or depressed.
And you will never have true peace in your being until you have received this Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You will never know true peace without knowing God.
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11 Nov 21
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@sonship
Correction: I meant struck not stroke.
When I read Fox's Book of Martyrs about the persecution of Christians at the hands of the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church I was struck by how the deaths of Christians testified that they knew something they had COULD NOT be destroyed.
11 Nov 21
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@kellyjay saidI do not dispute that there are non-material things, and that some of them are personal. What I dispute is that there is a soul which survives death. Of course my thoughts can be preserved indefinitely in the form of books or in some other medium. This is not what the Church proposes is 'saved' through grace. Let some Christian here give a clear definition what the soul is, and then let him show evidence that the word actually attaches to something ontologically and is not a mere chimera, like "unicorn." No tommyrot like "the inner-most essence of your being" -- that is a load of edifying-sounding nonsense which doesn't denote anything at all.
There are many things in your life that you could point to that are limited to the material; as a matter of fact, the material change goes away, and they stay. You have a thought, you write it on your keyboard, the thought is immaterial the action of putting your thought on the keyboard is a matter of you typing. We read and comprehend your thoughts; though we may view them ...[text shortened]... an just a material body, that the real you, even if your body is damaged, are still the same person?
11 Nov 21
@kellyjay saidI refer to Sonship's opening post:
I believe you are correct here dive; it is the profession of faith, not the man, that mattered in that context and the church. I don't care what Rome thinks one way or another.
"Regardless of problems in history with the church and I churches I will prove that "church" is a precious, positive, and wonderful word signifying the most positive and wonderful things about Jesus and Christians."
You may not care what the Church of Rome thinks about these matters, but up until only a couple of hundred years ago, you and Sonship both would have been burnt at the stake for the things you believe. The Salem witch trials occurred in the 1690s, and in terms of the history of most nations of the Earth, that is barely yesterday. It was not because the Church became suddenly more benign about 250 years ago. It was because of secular revolutions, principally in France and America, separating Church and state and divesting the Church of the power to wreak such havoc.
I maintain that "church" is NOT a precious, positive, and wonderful word signifying the most positive and wonderful things about Jesus and Christians. I maintain that "church" is mendacity through and through. It is mendacity because its sole purpose for existing is the salvation of souls, but it cannot provide a scrap of evidence that a) souls exist, or b) any soul was ever actually saved by the Church. Instead, it propagates fairy tales. Mendacity.
11 Nov 21
@moonbus saidAn idea, good or bad, right or wrong, kindness, integrity, honesty are all immaterial things and in my opinion more important than material things. The world houses us we interact in it we all have values, and they help define us.
I do not dispute that there are non-material things, and that some of them are personal. What I dispute is that there is a soul which survives death. Of course my thoughts can be preserved indefinitely in the form of books or in some other medium. This is not what the Church proposes is 'saved' through grace. Let some Christian here give a clear definition what the soul is, a ...[text shortened]... of your being" -- that is a load of edifying-sounding nonsense which doesn't denote anything at all.
An honest poor man I would highly value over a dishonest rich one. The great meaningful things along those lines show us what matters. I believe that we all have been created by the unseen, and our worth will not be measured by what we had in this life, but instead what we did with what we had.
You know, I believe that many things transcend the material world; l believe our lives are the most important ones. You are more than the sum of your biological parts.
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@moonbus
You told us about the nineteen people killed as witches in the Salem Witch Trials.
That was definitely nineteen too many for sure. And the Spanish Inquisition was atrocious.
Tell us about the 100 millions slain in atheist ideologues of Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and your so lovable other Atheist regimes of the 20th Century. Were you asleep in the last century ?
Fascism and communism - both of which were atheist ideologies - murdered more than 150 million people in the 20th Century alone.
Communist and other godless regimes have continued to kill hundreds of thousands since. Add the millions of rapes, tortures and enslavements by these same godless regimes, and you’ve got yourself a pretty ugly picture.
From https://www.premierchristianity.com/home/5-uncomfortable-facts-atheists-need-to-hear/2415.article
12 Nov 21
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@kellyjay saidI could hardly disagree with that. Now show me that this immaterial aspect of any individual human persists after his death and goes to heaven and eternal bliss. I mean some sort of evidence, not quoting a book I don't believe in.
An idea, good or bad, right or wrong, kindness, integrity, honesty are all immaterial things and in my opinion more important than material things. The world houses us we interact in it we all have values, and they help define us.
An honest poor man I would highly value over a dishonest rich one. The great meaningful things along those lines show us what matters. I belie ...[text shortened]... l believe our lives are the most important ones. You are more than the sum of your biological parts.
12 Nov 21
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@moonbus saidUnless you want someone to shoot you and hope you come back, what would you like to occur, what would you like to see, what evidence would you consider valid? Outside of near-death experiences, where would you expect to find this sort of evidence?
I could hardly disagree with that. Now show me that this immaterial aspect of any individual human persists after his death and goes to heaven and eternal bliss. I mean some sort of evidence, not quoting a book I don't believe in.