“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Exodus 20:4
How many churches do we see with a huge cross front and centre? It’s a graven image!
Some people wear them around their neck or carry them in their pockets as comforting charms. They are graven images!
If you go to church, have a look around and see what’s been erected for you and the rest of the laity to vicariously offer worship through.Crosses with a dead person are even worse imo.
This church even calls itself the the church of the holy cross?
https://www.holycrosscreston.com/
@divegeester saidWhat you're talking about is idolatry. Worshiping something that is not God. The crosses people wear, the crosses churches erect, is not that. Neither is the Star of David of the Jewish faith. Neither is the crescent and star of Islam. They are symbols of our faith. They are no golden calf.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Exodus 20:4
How many churches do we see with a huge cross front and centre? It’s a graven image!
Some people wear them around their neck or carry them in their pockets as comforting charms. T ...[text shortened]...
This church even calls itself the the church of the holy cross?
https://www.holycrosscreston.com/
They do not take the place of God. They are not idols. They are mere symbols.
@suzianne saidHave not seen any Jews worshiping the star of David, but I have seen lots of Christians bowing down to the cross, kissing the ring of the Pope and kneeling before pictures of a man they believe to be Jesus Christ. God in his wisdom knew how stupid people are and therefore made that rule not to have an image of representation of any such thing as it would lead to idolatry and it did especially in the Christian churches.
What you're talking about is idolatry. Worshiping something that is not God. The crosses people wear, the crosses churches erect, is not that. Neither is the Star of David of the Jewish faith. Neither is the crescent and star of Islam. They are symbols of our faith. They are no golden calf.
They do not take the place of God. They are not idols. They are mere symbols.
@divegeester saidExcellent point and question.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Exodus 20:4
How many churches do we see with a huge cross front and centre? It’s a graven image!
Some people wear them around their neck or carry them in their pockets as comforting charms. T ...[text shortened]...
This church even calls itself the the church of the holy cross?
https://www.holycrosscreston.com/
As some have stated, some people just have them as symbols, and some, actually do worship these symbols. In my opinion, the Catholic Church does much of the latter; so do other denominations around the world.
What I personally think is worse is, those who pray to Peter, Paul, Mary, and other saints for intercession to God. There is only One Intercessor and His Name is Jesus.
Peter, Paul, and Mary, would all have a fit, if they knew that people were worshipping and praying to them for intercession.
@divegeester saidOne “reverences” symbols and icons of the faith , one does not worship them. This has been clearly distinguished and defined; just look it up.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Exodus 20:4
How many churches do we see with a huge cross front and centre? It’s a graven image!
Some people wear them around their neck or carry them in their pockets as comforting charms. T ...[text shortened]...
This church even calls itself the the church of the holy cross?
https://www.holycrosscreston.com/
@moonbus saidShowing reverence to anything but God is unacceptable. Symbols and icons are all man-made paraphernalia and therefore must not be used. Photographs and pictures of God or Christ are, from what I can tell also idolatrous. Churches that attempt to make a distinction between reverence to symbols v worship are grasping at straws and showing that they do not understand what they are doing. The Catholic Church is notorious for worshiping people .. totally contrary to the bible.
One “reverences” symbols and icons of the faith , one does not worship them. This has been clearly distinguished and defined; just look it up.
@rajk999 saidReverence is clearly distinguished from worship; Icons and symbols help to focus the mind and point it toward the divine. If some people get stuck on the symbols, confusing reverence for worship, the fault lies with the people, not the symbols.
Showing reverence to anything but God is unacceptable. Symbols and icons are all man-made paraphernalia and therefore must not be used. Photographs and pictures of God or Christ are, from what I can tell also idolatrous. Churches that attempt to make a distinction between reverence to symbols v worship are grasping at straws and showing that they do not understand what they are doing. The Catholic Church is notorious for worshiping people .. totally contrary to the bible.
@moonbus saidThe fault is always with the people, symbols and just things.
Reverence is clearly distinguished from worship; Icons and symbols help to focus the mind and point it toward the divine. If some people get stuck on the symbols, confusing reverence for worship, the fault lies with the people, not the symbols.
30 Jul 22
@divegeester saidIt's a reminder that religion is simply a manifestation of culture, artefacts, symbols, architecture, ceremonies and all the rest of it.
How many churches do we see with a huge cross front and centre? It’s a graven image! Some people wear them around their neck or carry them in their pockets as comforting charms. They are graven images! If you go to church, have a look around and see what’s been erected for you and the rest of the laity to vicariously offer worship through.Crosses with a dead person are even worse imo.
@divegeester saidSo, there are two paths: Islam, which forbids people to have any images at all, and thereby infantilizes people who cannot make correct spiritual decisions for themselves but simply obey; or Christianity, which tells people they can have images and icons provided they learn to use the images and icons properly as reminders or pointers, i.e., reverence the images, and do not worship the images.
The fault is always with the people, symbols and just things.
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@divegeester saidCould it not be said that your sense of self -- with all its attendant stories and attributions of traits, and written as it must be on your lump of gray matter -- is a graven image?
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Exodus 20:4
@kevin-eleven saidI don’t think so no, at least not in the context of the OP.
Could it not be said that your sense of self -- with all its attendant stories and attributions of traits, and written as it must be on your lump of gray matter -- is a graven image?
Edit: oh I see what you did there…
@suzianne saidRight, the commandment is one literally against idolatry, as back at this time people made literal sacrifices to specific idols that were treated as manifestations of gods.
What you're talking about is idolatry. Worshiping something that is not God. The crosses people wear, the crosses churches erect, is not that. Neither is the Star of David of the Jewish faith. Neither is the crescent and star of Islam. They are symbols of our faith. They are no golden calf.
They do not take the place of God. They are not idols. They are mere symbols.
St. Paul clarifies that this is about worshiping gold/silver/stone idols:
Acts 17Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him [Jesus] from the dead.
The Catholic stance on this is also good to read:
Because God's identity and transcendent character are described in Scripture as unique,[82] the teaching of the Catholic Church proscribes superstition as well as irreligion and explains the commandment is broken by having images to which divine power is ascribed as well as in divinizing anything that is not God. "Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons … power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc". The Catholic Church teaches that idolatry extends beyond the worship of images of other gods. "Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God".[83] The Catechism commends those who refuse even to simulate such worship in a cultural context[83] and states that "the duty to offer God authentic worship concerns man both as an individual and as a social being."[84]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_make_unto_thee_any_graven_image#Christianity
I think if you were to take a super strict interpretation of no graven images, you would be forced into some extreme position like we cannot allow ourselves images of birds. But really, the commandment to the Hebrews is all about the literal worship of idols...
And the cross is a symbol; ikons in churches are inspirational and inspired paintings that help us cotnextualize our faith and direct our affections to Christ and His Saints. They are not being worshiped.