@philokalia saidI am not interested in some video you happen to like. If you can't express your idea succinctly, so be it.
Check out what he is talking about in the 10 minute mark
@philokalia saidThe OP is not about people with "zero intention" of repenting. Both you and Suzianne seem to want to ask yourself a different question and answer THAT one instead of mine. Oh well.
That deny the efficacy of the Holy Spirit and game it are committing the unforgivable sin. Some people are doing it, certainly, and will before their deaths claim to have repented for a thing, or have ticked a box by asking forgiveness, but really have allowed themselves those sins with zero intention of changing and with the full knowledge that what they do is wrong... Which is unforgivable.
29 Aug 23
@fmf saidThe OP is...
The OP is not about people with "zero intention" of repenting. Both you and Suzianne seem to want to ask yourself a different question and answer THAT one instead of mine. Oh well.
Christian politicians, regardless of being on the left or right, can deliberately lie in the course of their political activities safe in the "knowledge" [i.e. belief] that Christ sacrificed his life to forgive their sins and they can repent later.
Discuss
My suggestion is that committing a sin with the idea that you will just be forgiven later, so it is inconsequential, is taking forgieveness for granted - that we are entitled to be forgiven a sin that we consciously commit, thinking that we are guaranteed forgiveness later.
This is completely against what we learn as Christians, so politicians or anyone else who actively engages in bad things thinking oh yeah, I can just get this wiped out later, is sinning against the Holy Spirit by feeling entitled to it, just as someone who does not believe in the efficacy of the Holy Spirit similarly sins against it.
@philokalia saidSo are you saying that a Christian who lies deliberately faces damnation because their repentence - even if it is sincere - will not secure forgiveness?
The OP is...
Christian politicians, regardless of being on the left or right, can deliberately lie in the course of their political activities safe in the "knowledge" [i.e. belief] that Christ sacrificed his life to forgive their sins and they can repent later.
Discuss
My suggestion is that [i]committing a sin with the idea that you will just be fo ...[text shortened]... , just as someone who does not believe in the efficacy of the Holy Spirit similarly sins against it.
29 Aug 23
@fmf saidIf you thought to yourself I can just repent of this later, and commit a sin, and subsequently simply say, oh, yes, of course, I repent of that, this is not sincere contrition, but entitlement to forgiveness... Which is the sin against the Holy Spirit.
So are you saying that a Christian who lies deliberately faces damnation because their repentence - even if it is sincere - will not secure forgiveness?
So, if you actually think, Oh, I can just repent of that later, but go on to very sincerely regret the double-sin committed here, of taking advantage of God's forgiveness and treating it as a system that you can game, you can be forgiven.
For when you are taking forgiveness for granted, as a thing you can just walk up and claim, you are sinning against the Holy Spirit in the very moment that you are supposed to be repenting.
Which actually relates back to the conentional, popular understanding that the Moldovan monk in the video elaborates beyond:
Today, the Church understands as “unpardonable” only the sin for which people do not ask God to forgive them, that is, when people reject stubbornly Jesus Christ and His gift of eternal life to the end of their lives. Therefore, only the unrepentant sin is unforgivable. Anyone who sincerely repents of his sins and asks for God’s forgiveness will receive it. No human offence is beyond divine forgiveness. The Church forgives any sin committed, as the Lord commanded us to forgive, even unto “seventy times seven” (Mt. 18:22), that is always. Occasionally for very grave sins the Church may cut someone off from Holy Communion, that is, from Christ our life. This is a temporary measure done in order for us to realize the severity of our sin and to come to complete repentance.
https://www.orthodoxwitness.org/the-unpardonable-sin/#:~:text=Only%20the%20unrepentant%20sin%20is%20unforgivable.%20Today%2C%20the,lives.%20Therefore%2C%20only%20the%20unrepentant%20sin%20is%20unforgivable.
To reject the concept of sin and to reject Christ and the Holy Spirit are both aspects of the unpardonable sin, as is gaming the system, treating yourself as entitled to forgiveness, and thus not sincerely repenting, because you view your sin as inconsequential.
St. Augustine of Hippo also talks about this in the earlys days of the church as unrepentance itself as the sin against the Holy Spirit:
Against this unmerited gift, against this free grace of God, the impenitent heart may continue to murmur. So it is unrepentance that is a blasphemy against the Spirit. It is not forgiven either in this world or in the next. Think of a person whose sins are entirely forgiven in faithful baptism and whom the church has welcomed. This is the very church commissioned to remit sin, in which whatever sins it remits are promised to be truly remitted. You are speaking a very evil, utterly graceless word against the Holy Spirit, you are speaking it in thought or out loud, if when the patience of God is beckoning you to repentance, you harden your impenitent heart. By doing so you store up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revelation of the just judgment of God, who will render to us all according to our works. This is the impenitence that is called both by the name of blasphemy and speaking against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. This is the flagrant impenitence against which both the herald and the Judge cried out when they proclaimed: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” It is the same impenitence against which the Lord opened his mouth to preach the gospel. He preached against it when he foretold that the gospel itself was to be preached in the whole world; when he said to the disciples after rising from the dead that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise again from the dead on the third day; and for repentance and the forgiveness of sins to be preached in his name throughout all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Yes, this refusal to repent has absolutely no forgiveness, neither in this age nor in the age to come, because repentance obtains forgiveness in this world in preparation for the next. .
From the Catena Bible commentaries on Matthew 12:32 -- the quotation from St. John Chrysostom is also relevant.
https://catenabible.com/mt/12
29 Aug 23
@philokalia saidSo, to be clear; in answer to this question:
If you thought to yourself I can just repent of this later, and commit a sin, and subsequently simply say, oh, yes, of course, I repent of that, this is not sincere contrition, but entitlement to forgiveness... Which is the sin against the Holy Spirit.
So, if you actually think, Oh, I can just repent of that later, but go on to very sincerely regret ...[text shortened]... are sinning against the Holy Spirit in the very moment that you are supposed to be repenting.
So are you saying that a Christian who lies deliberately faces damnation because their repentance - even if it is sincere - will not secure forgiveness?
Your answer is "Yes"?
Right?
29 Aug 23
@Philokalia
And this:
Do the lies of Christian politicians have to be inadvertent or somehow involuntary if they are to have any hope of being forgiven?
29 Aug 23
@fmf saidNo, I said this:
So, to be clear; in answer to this question:
So are you saying that a Christian who lies deliberately faces damnation because their repentance - even if it is sincere - will not secure forgiveness?
Your answer is "Yes"?
Right?
So, if you actually think, Oh, I can just repent of that later, but go on to very sincerely regret the double-sin committed here, of taking advantage of God's forgiveness and treating it as a system that you can game, you can be forgiven.
So when we commit a sin just thinking of ourselves as being able to repent of the sin later, as if it is an afterthought, it can be forgiven us... But we have to repent also of the sinfulness of trying to approach God as if we are entitled to forgivness without showing true contrition.
^^
29 Aug 23
@fmf saidNo...
@Philokalia
And this:
Do the lies of Christian politicians have to be inadvertent or somehow involuntary if they are to have any hope of being forgiven?
Theoertically, a fake Christian politician or a theologically very ignorant Christian without much retrospection could literally do what you said, thinking he will game the system, but if he is sincerely contrite subsequently, this is forgiven him...
For the sin is, as stated previously, the rejection of the Holy Spirit, which likewise includes the rejection of repentence,
Let's appreciate the St. Augustine quote again:
Against this unmerited gift, against this free grace of God, the impenitent heart may continue to murmur. So it is unrepentance that is a blasphemy against the Spirit. It is not forgiven either in this world or in the next. Think of a person whose sins are entirely forgiven in faithful baptism and whom the church has welcomed. This is the very church commissioned to remit sin, in which whatever sins it remits are promised to be truly remitted. You are speaking a very evil, utterly graceless word against the Holy Spirit, you are speaking it in thought or out loud, if when the patience of God is beckoning you to repentance, you harden your impenitent heart. By doing so you store up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revelation of the just judgment of God, who will render to us all according to our works. This is the impenitence that is called both by the name of blasphemy and speaking against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. This is the flagrant impenitence against which both the herald and the Judge cried out when they proclaimed: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” It is the same impenitence against which the Lord opened his mouth to preach the gospel. He preached against it when he foretold that the gospel itself was to be preached in the whole world; when he said to the disciples after rising from the dead that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise again from the dead on the third day; and for repentance and the forgiveness of sins to be preached in his name throughout all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Yes, this refusal to repent has absolutely no forgiveness, neither in this age nor in the age to come, because repentance obtains forgiveness in this world in preparation for the next.
29 Aug 23
@philokalia saidSo are you saying that a Christian who lies deliberately - thinking that Jesus will forgive them - faces damnation because their repentance - even if it is sincere - will not secure forgiveness?
So when we commit a sin just thinking of ourselves as being able to repent of the sin later, as if it is an afterthought, it can be forgiven us... But we have to repent also of the sinfulness of trying to approach God as if we are entitled to forgivness without showing true contrition.
29 Aug 23
@philokalia saidWell, all Christians are aware of and rely on the belief that their "sins" will be forgiven because of Jesus's sacrifice, so if they deliberately lie, is it OK as long as they contrite later?
No...
Theoertically, a fake Christian politician or a theologically very ignorant Christian without much retrospection could literally do what you said, thinking he will game the system, but if he is sincerely contrite subsequently, this is forgiven him...
For the sin is, as stated previously, the rejection of the Holy Spirit, which likewise includes the rejection of repentence
Are "theologically very ignorant Christians without much retrospection" held to a different standard to other Christians?
29 Aug 23
@fmf said(1) A person who casually lies, fornicates, thinks evil thoughts against their neighbor, etc., all just to repent later, has not actually repented... The root of repentance is metanoia.
Well, all Christians are aware of and rely on the belief that their "sins" will be forgiven because of Jesus's sacrifice, so if they deliberately lie, is it OK as long as they contrite later?
Are "theologically very ignorant Christians without much retrospection" held to a different standard to other Christians?
n Christian theology, metanoia (from the Greek μετάνοια, metanoia, changing one's mind) is commonly understood as "a transformative change of heart; especially: a spiritual conversion".[1] The term suggests repudiation, change of mind, repentance, and atonement; but "conversion" and "reformation" may best approximate its connotation.[2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_%28theology%29
(2) Yes... As children are held to a lower standard than adults.
@Philokalia
Aren't all deliberate lies told by Christians told in the context of their belief in forgiveness and "salvation"?
Doesn't that mean ~ given that a Christian's purported relationship with Jesus is everpresent and all-pervasive ~ that all lies knowingly and willfully told by Christians ~ indeed, all and any "sins" knowingly and willfully committed by Christians ~ to your way of thinking, are "sins against the Holy Spirit" and thus unforgivable