31 Aug 23
@fmf saidI am curious as to why you do not think my previous answer interfaces with your question adequately.
Thanks for the background information. I will ask once more in the hope of getting a point blank answer:
When a Christian deliberately lies, should they assume that they will not be forgiven and that the deliberate lie will mean they face damnation?
31 Aug 23
@philokalia said"Interfacing" with it is fine. I thanked you for that. I'm interested in 1. getting an unequivocal answer to my straightforward and specific question. And now I am also curious about 2. why you are prevaricating so much.
I am curious as to why you do not think my previous answer interfaces with your question adequately.
@Philokalia
Should a Christian assume he or she will not be forgiven and thus face damnation if they deliberately /calculatedly/ consciously/ willfully/ knowingly lie?
31 Aug 23
I do not think that we can take such a complicated issue and give it a "yes" or "no" answer, because there are too many things to consider...
If we attempt to boil it down to "yes" or "no," we do not justice to it.
When you oversimplify, you are doing a disservice to the truth. The truth should be treated as a complex, debatable thing, especially to fools like us.
31 Aug 23
@philokalia saidI disagree. My question gets to the heart of the matter and stems from all the stuff you have been saying. If you can't answer, so be it.
I do not think that we can take such a complicated issue and give it a "yes" or "no" answer, because there are too many things to consider...
If we attempt to boil it down to "yes" or "no," we do not justice to it.
@philokalia saidI am trying to get to the pure simple [supposed] truth behind what you are saying about deliberate "sin" and forgiveness and damnation.
When you oversimplify, you are doing a disservice to the truth. The truth should be treated as a complex, debatable thing, especially to fools like us.
If you cannot answer my question because your doctrine is too "complex" and "the pure simple truth" that underlies your beliefs is, in fact, "debatable", then let that be your contribution to the discussion. I thank you for it.
If you ever feel you are no longer overwhelmed by the "complexity" of what you believe, then feel free to return and have a go at what is, after all, a fair question.
Try this slightly amended version:
When they deliberately lie, should Christians assume they might not be forgiven and thus face damnation?
There. It will be here waiting for you.
31 Aug 23
@philokalia saidShould Christians assume they will not be forgiven and thus face damnation if they deliberately lie?
If we attempt to boil it down to "yes" or "no," we do not justice to it.
Claiming you simply cannot answer this question suggests that you perhaps cannot do justice to what you believe by copy-pasting lots of "complex" dogma that is probably more suited to a Christian interlocutor who already agrees with you - in some confirmation bias environment - and who is not going to ask you any questions that seek to scrutinize your dogmatic rhetoric.
31 Aug 23
@philokalia said“Interfaces” ?
I am curious as to why you do not think my previous answer interfaces with your question adequately.
31 Aug 23
@divegeester saidhttps://www.bing.com/search?pglt=169&q=define+interface&cvid=52fc87fb1f7841278e797ad399b16511&aqs=edge.0.0l9.2730j0j1&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=EDGEDB
“Interfaces” ?
31 Aug 23
@fmf saidChristians should assume that if they do not repent, they will face damnation.
Should Christians assume they will not be forgiven and thus face damnation if they deliberately lie?
Claiming you simply cannot answer this question suggests that you perhaps cannot do justice to what you believe by copy-pasting lots of "complex" dogma that is probably more suited to a Christian interlocutor who already agrees with you - in some confirmation bias environment - and who is not going to ask you any questions that seek to scrutinize your dogmatic rhetoric.
And part of repentance is to actively avoid sin, and to recast yourself in a way that is resistant to falling into sin. It is being a living project.
So, as far as this matter goes, the answer would be that
- Christians should simultaneously assume that sin is easily forgiven, and that they must repent.
... So, right there, the answer to the question would be that a Christian ought to not sin, not count on forgiveness, and be repentant for the mere idea of lying so easily crossing into their minds.
... Yet, to also recognize God's mercy, and that we can even sin without knowing it, as man is so frail.
Our own personal stubborness and sins does not diminish God's mercy.
The Saints frequently tell us that we shoudl view everyone else as having valid excuses for their sins while regarding ourselves as the greatest sinner of all. For if St. Paul regarded himself as the greatest sinner, why should we get a pass?
I hope that helps. ^^
31 Aug 23
@philokalia saidChristians should assume that even if they deliberately lie, they can then repent and therfore not face damnation. Correct?
Christians should assume that if they do not repent, they will face damnation.
31 Aug 23
@philokalia said"The Saints frequently tell [you]" things in their writings? Would following Jesus without the help of "the Saints" be possible for you?
The Saints frequently tell us that we shoudl view everyone else as having valid excuses for their sins while regarding ourselves as the greatest sinner of all.
Where does Jesus teach that "we should view everyone else as having valid excuses for their sins"?
31 Aug 23
1 edit
@philokalia saidThe notion of "sinning without knowing it" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the question at hand.
Yet, to also recognize God's mercy, and that we can even sin without knowing it, as man is so frail.
31 Aug 23
@philokalia saidSo there can be no repentance if one actively and knowingly engages in "sin"?
And part of repentance is to actively avoid sin, and to recast yourself in a way that is resistant to falling into sin. It is being a living project.
31 Aug 23
@fmf saidNo, they cannot assume that they can deliberately lie (and not white lies - "no, dear, you do not look fat in that dress"😉, lie to deceive, lie for personal gain...
Christians should assume that even if they deliberately lie, they can then repent and therfore not face damnation. Correct?
... and that they will be forgiven...
We face judgment for all our actions, and thus the idea tht I can tell alie for personal gain and just assume I will be forgiven because I simply [i]ask[/i ]once is wrong.
We all face d*mnation for our sins...
Yet, to try to use this to suggest that lying is unforgivable is also wrong.