Does prayer work?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
so abortion is essentially murder, thank you for clearing that up.

Absolutely not.

Abortion is not murder.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Absolutely not.

Abortion is not murder.

you are taking the life of an innocent, it is therefore premeditated murder. Here again is
the voidreasons criteria,

state sanctioned killing of any kind is murder.
any act of a conscious decision to kill is murder.

that pretty much sums up abortion.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
indeed it is. to anyone with a higher sense of moral development.

my sense of morality goes higher still:
state sanctioned killing of any kind is murder.
any act of a conscious decision to kill is murder.

some murder, such as killing in self defense can be justified to a certain extend. but we must be careful not to allow this get out of hand (such as the stand your ground laws). all such cases should be decided in court.

I have to disagree with this. (firstly murder is not synonymous with killing, murder is unlawful/immoral/unjustified killing.
Killing that is none of those things isn't murder. Otherwise your just messing with the meaning of a word which
impresses nobody. If you oppose any killing of any kind say that rather than twist the word murder to mean something
it doesn't)

All cases should absolutely not be 'decided in court' that's a really stupid idea.

Any incident where a person dies should have some sort of investigation to determine the cause.
Which happens in all western societies with coroners.

IF the cause was another persons actions then there should be an investigation of those actions
and IF the actions are deemed to be in breach of the law AND there is sufficient evidence to do so
THEN it should go to court.

The prosecution/police/ect should never bring a case to court that they don't have a good faith belief
will result in a guilty conviction.

As self defence is legal then a clear cut case of self defence should not be prosecuted as it's a waste of
everyone's time and it further traumatises the person who had to fight for their life. The victim.

Only if the self defence is in question do you put it before a jury.


Also what do you mean by state sanctioned killing?

Hypothetical.

There is a hijacked plane flying for the Olympic stadium during the opening ceremony.

There are tens of thousands of people in the stadium (not to mention various heads of state who are in charge
of most of the west's nuclear launch codes.) many/most of whom will die if the plane hits the stadium.

The military/state orders the defence batteries/pursuing aircraft to shoot down the aircraft.

The aircraft is shot down killing the terrorists and any passengers on board.


Would you class this as state sanctioned killing?
Would you class this as murder?

Would you find it more morally preferable for the plane to hit the stadium resulting in a much greater loss of life?



Morality is hard, It takes thinking about.

Apart from being dogmatic, having no foundation, and refusing to even consider changing, religions major problem with morality
is often being overly simplistic. (many situations not thought of by bronze age goat herders)


We need complicated morality for a complicated world. (simple foundations but complicated results)



I completely agree that the "stand your ground" laws are an abomination and perversion of the self defence principle.

However to object to the self defence exception for murder on the grounds that you can go too far is a slippery
slope argument and you have to justify the slippery slope otherwise you are committing the slippery slope fallacy.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are taking the life of an innocent, it is therefore premeditated murder. Here again is
the voidreasons criteria,

state sanctioned killing of any kind is murder.
any act of a conscious decision to kill is murder.

that pretty much sums up abortion.

'killing' a bunch of cells is not murder.

And I don't buy Void's criteria and I suspect (hope) that with some thought he doesn't either.
However that's still to be determined and irrelevant to the fact that a bunch of cells is not a person.

A person has a mind, which requires a functioning brain, which no foetus has.

Unless and until there is a mind involved it's just a sack of meat and you can't murder a sack of meat.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are taking the life of an innocent, it is therefore premeditated murder. Here again is
the voidreasons criteria,

state sanctioned killing of any kind is murder.
any act of a conscious decision to kill is murder.

that pretty much sums up abortion.

does that make a miscarriage 'god sanctioned abortion'. oh no because god only takes somebody if its part of his lovely plan.........unless you pray hard enough then he decides its not part of his plan or his plan can do with out the child or whatever. god is good, or so he says.

Originally posted by googlefudge
'killing' a bunch of cells is not murder.

And I don't buy Void's criteria and I suspect (hope) that with some thought he doesn't either.
However that's still to be determined and irrelevant to the fact that a bunch of cells is not a person.

A person has a mind, which requires a functioning brain, which no foetus has.

Unless and until there is a mind involved it's just a sack of meat and you can't murder a sack of meat.

a bunch of cells? oh dear oh dear, so every abortion takes place immediately after
conception, this has to be the biggest and most epic fail of all time failures. Your
definition of what constitutes a life is meaningless, You have no more recourse to the
term morality than a serial axe murderer.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
does that make a miscarriage 'god sanctioned abortion'. oh no because god only takes somebody if its part of his lovely plan.........unless you pray hard enough then he decides its not part of his plan or his plan can do with out the child or whatever. god is good, or so he says.

miscarriage is result of some type of aberration during pregnancy, how God is involved
in this aberration, you have not said nor can you because you are talking pants. It is
unlikely to be deliberate either, which the conscious decision to abort certainly is,
another failure i am afraid, neeeext!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
miscarriage is result of some type of aberration during pregnancy, how God is involved
in this aberration, you have not said nor can you because you are talking pants. It is
unlikely to be deliberate either, which the conscious decision to abort certainly is,
another failure i am afraid, neeeext!

god created everything, he created the 'aberration'. he also designed babies so they cannot regulate their own body temperature, why would he do that??? im sure if he sorted that out we would have a lot less cot death.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
a bunch of cells? oh dear oh dear, so every abortion takes place immediately after
conception, this has to be the biggest and most epic fail of all time failures. Your
definition of what constitutes a life is meaningless, You have no more recourse to the
term morality than a serial axe murderer.

mr fudge specifically mentioned a 'bunch of cells'. do you think aborting a bunch of cells is the same as state sanctioned murder?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
mr fudge specifically mentioned a 'bunch of cells'. do you think aborting a bunch of cells is the same as state sanctioned murder?

life is life and i make no distinction between the right to life and those who wilfully take
it, either through murder or abortion. 'A bunch of cells', is typical of the type of
desensitising rhetoric that those who advocate state sanctioned killing of innocents like
to use, it helps them to sanitise the killing.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
god created everything, he created the 'aberration'. he also designed babies so they cannot regulate their own body temperature, why would he do that??? im sure if he sorted that out we would have a lot less cot death.

God created the aberration, no, aberration is the result of imperfection.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
God created the aberration, no, aberration is the result of imperfection.

how did the imperfection get there?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
how did the imperfection get there?

Through inherited sin, from Adam. Sin essentially means a kind of imperfection.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
life is life and i make no distinction between the right to life and those who wilfully take
it, either through murder or abortion. 'A bunch of cells', is typical of the type of
desensitising rhetoric that those who advocate state sanctioned killing of innocents like
to use, it helps them to sanitise the killing.

thats fine, i respect your opinion on this, as long as you dont try and force it on others. i personally have conflicting feelings on the subject, its a complex subject and would take me a very long time to explain on here what i think and would probably bore the crap out of anybody reading. however when talking about cells i couldnt disagree with you more, until something has thought it is not life (imo) and in some situations i understand why some people have abortions very late.


we need to sort out britains social services, attitude towards adoption and change the social climate of the country before we can change the laws of abortion.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Through inherited sin, from Adam. Sin essentially means a kind of imperfection.

what determines the capabilities of sin? what parameters does sin have when effecting the human world? could sin turn us all into garden furniture? did sin create all illnesses?