25 Oct 12
Originally posted by galveston75Was this totally necessary?
Just a "bunch of cells" huh?
What an Unborn Baby Feels
How does it feel to an unborn baby to be nestled securely in the warmth of its mother’s womb and then suddenly be assaulted with deadly force? We can only imagine, for the story will never be told firsthand.
Most abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks ...[text shortened]... must be left to die. Some are deliberately killed by smothering, drowning, and in other ways.
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25 Oct 12
Originally posted by galveston75Ah, sorry I did mean to answer this.
Perhaps you missed my question on the last page. Here it is again: Just curious, at what point do you consider an unborn baby to be a life and when would it be considered murder? I probably know your answer but I'm still curious...
Again with the word 'life'.
Life is the wrong word.
A plant is alive, a bacteria is alive, being alive doesn't mean that we necessarily care about keeping it alive,
or give that 'life' any rights.
So the question is not 'is it alive' but is it a person. You can't murder anything that isn't a person.
And there is no point at which I consider an abortion to be murder.
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25 Oct 12
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75Oh dear, you do have a lot to learn.
Just a "bunch of cells" huh?
What an Unborn Baby Feels
How does it feel to an unborn baby to be nestled securely in the warmth of its mother’s womb and then suddenly be assaulted with deadly force? We can only imagine, for the story will never be told firsthand.
Most abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks ...[text shortened]... must be left to die. Some are deliberately killed by smothering, drowning, and in other ways.
How does it feel to an unborn baby to be nestled securely in the warmth of its mother’s
womb and then suddenly be assaulted with deadly force? We can only imagine, for the story will
never be told firsthand.
You know why? Because no unborn baby has the capacity to form any memories because the brain
finishes developing AFTER birth.
It's a fairly major part of human evolution and our reproductive strategy that we give birth prematurely
so that we can continue to develop and grow our brain (head) long after our heads would cease to
fit through our mothers birth canal.
The brain is not done even AT birth let alone before it.... Which brings me to your second um... 'point'.
Most abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks of life. By this stage the tiny fetus practices
breathing and swallowing, and its heart is beating. It can curl its tiny toes, make a fist, turn flips in its
watery world—and feel pain.
Yeah... That's total Male Cow Excrement.
http://atheistelephant.com/2012/03/among-other-things-abby-johnson-didnt-pay-attention-in-biology-part-ii/
Moving on from the misplaced ideas of the beginning of life, another hurdle must be overcome: fetal pain. Now, Abby Johnson specifically stated [DISCLAIMER: the following is a précis of her story and doesn’t take into account whether it’s factual or not] that the fetus she witnessed under ultrasound was reacting to the doctor prodding it while the procedure was occurring, in obvious pain and stress. She made the leap from reaction to pain, assuming both are connected…I mean, why wouldn’t they be? Sadly, when it comes to the brain and the neural pathways within it, there are structures that are absolutely necessary for the perception of pain. Right now, we’re about to get into some neuroanatomy, which I’m assuming is Abby Johnson’s favorite subject. Let’s dive right in!
Pain requires two things specifically: conscious recognition and noxious stimulus (Drey, et al., 2005). For these two things to be recognized, it takes a lot of brain power. Firstly, for all we don’t know about the specifics of the brain, we know for sure which areas do what and how they are connected. For instance, the prefrontal limbic cortices (emotion) and lateral prefrontal cortices (cognitive) of primates in general are quite interconnected and thought to be necessary for the ability to be conscious and such (Barbas, 2000). The problem of if a fetus feels pain then relies on the neural pathways from sensors along the skin, organs, etc., up the spinal column, and into the brain, which then needs a developed prefrontal cortex and the myelinated (insulated) connections necessary to be able to process what is felt. The minimum anatomy necessary for pain, connection wise, is then assumed to be thalamic (region of the brain situated between the cortex and midbrain) projections into the cortex called thalamocortical fibers (Working Party, 2010; Drey, et al., 2005) along with free nerve endings. These fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks gestation, and it is known that the free nerve endings around the body begin to connect to the spinal column and mature between 23 to 25 weeks gestation (Derbyshire, 2006; Drey, et al., 2005). What this amounts to is the consensus that a fetus has the neurological capacity to feel pain at around 26 to 30 weeks gestation (Drey, et al., 2005; Working Party, 2010; Derbyshire, 2006). This means that there is absolutely no possible way that the fetus that Abby Johnson says she saw under the ultrasound at 13 weeks gestation was feeling any pain.
“But, wait!” you say, “what about the fetus reacting to the doctor poking it with the hose??” And this is probably one of the biggest misunderstandings I have ever had the displeasure of hearing because, well…reactions don’t have to be conscious. I can quickly give three examples off the top of my head of unconscious reactions: 1) when a doctor hits you with his triangular hammer on your leg and it jerks, 2) when you put your finger in between the middle of the pads on the foot of a dog and the leg jerks spastically away, and 3) when an amoeba is touched with the tip of a toothpick and it retracts it’s pseudopodia (elongated cytoplasmic section). In fact, fetuses are known to react to being stimulated at a rate of 33.9% at around 13 weeks gestation (Hata, et al., 2011). Does this mean that they felt it? No! It can’t! If you still think it can, please re-read the paragraph before this one. If you’d rather not, I’ll spell it out clearly: there are no connections yet at all that are even remotely capable of pain reception. And, as a final nail in the coffin, even if there were, the placenta acts as a natural sedative environment, which is why anesthesia can’t be used in the same way for fetuses as it can for adults (Working Party, 2010; Drey, et al., 2005).
This also covers the rest of your points as it does not matter how gruesome it looks, the fact that it looks like a person,
and is made of flesh and blood, does not make it a person. For that you need a functioning mind, which no unborn baby has.
That develops AFTER birth.
If the baby is too developed to be killed by these or similar methods, one option remains—hysterotomy, a cesarean
section with a twist, ending life instead of saving it. The mother’s abdomen is opened surgically, and almost always a live baby
is pulled out. It may even cry. But it must be left to die. Some are deliberately killed by smothering, drowning, and in other ways.
Late term abortions are rare, and almost always done in extremis.
I am not about to suggest any restriction that would make something so painful even more so.
And do remember that my argument for abortion is right of the mother to bodily autonomy.
An argument that works even if the foetus were a fully fledged person sitting there contemplating
the meaning of life while composing a symphony and reading Shakespeare on it's iPad.
I am pointing out that your arguments are wrong because I care about the truth, not because they
pose any threat to my arguments.
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25 Oct 12
Originally posted by galveston75You thought wrong.
I would think so to bring home the point of googlefudge's opionion of life which isn't very respectful and quite cruel.
And I am not the one who believes that fully fledged people deserve to spend an eternity
being tortured for not believing in the existence of and worshipping your petty vindictive
evil and imaginary god.
25 Oct 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeI don't believe in a "fully fledged person" spending an eternity suffering in a burning hell either. That is not taught in the Bible at all. That is a pagan docrtine that was brought into the congregations by pagans.
You thought wrong.
And I am not the one who believes that fully fledged people deserve to spend an eternity
being tortured for not believing in the existence of and worshipping your petty vindictive
evil and imaginary god.
But the point is which you failed to answer is when is a fetus or baby considered to be murdered?
It seems you think only after a full term pregnacy. Is that what you are saying?
If it is then if the baby was 8 months old and in the womb, it would not be murder then to kill it? How about 7 or 6 or 5 months old?
26 Oct 12
Abortion
Definition: Abortion is the expulsion of an embryo or a fetus that is not normally able to live outside the womb. Spontaneous abortion or miscarriage may result from human imperfection or from an accident. Deliberately induced abortion simply to avoid the birth of an unwanted child is the willful taking of human life.
How should the Source of human life affect our view of this matter?
Acts 17:28: “By him [God] we have life and move and exist.”
Ps. 36:9: “With you Jehovah God is the source of life.”
Rom. 14:12: “Each of us will render an account for himself to God.”
Does Jehovah view the life of a child as precious even during the very early stages of development after conception?
Ps. 139:13-16: “You [Jehovah] kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. . . . Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.”
Has God ever stated that a person would be called to account for injury to an unborn child?
Ex. 21:22, 23: “In case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul.” (Some translations make it appear that in this law to Israel the crucial matter was what happened to the mother, not to the fetus. The original Hebrew text, however, refers to a fatal accident to either mother or child.)
How serious is the willful taking of a human life for a reason not authorized by God?
Gen. 9:6: “Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
1 John 3:15: “No manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him.”
Ex. 20:13: “You must not murder.”
"You know why? Because no unborn baby has the capacity to form any memories because the brain
finishes developing AFTER birth."
How do you know this? Can you or anyone prove beyond a shadow of a doubt this baby has no mental capoacity to know sounds, voices, music, memories, pain, feelings?
"It's a fairly major part of human evolution and our reproductive strategy that we give birth prematurely
so that we can continue to develop and grow our brain (head) long after our heads would cease to
fit through our mothers birth canal."
Evolution has nothing to do with human development.
"The brain is not done even AT birth let alone before it.... Which brings me to your second um... 'point'."
So if you take the life of a 3 year old who's brain is not fully developed, it's not murder?
27 Oct 12
Originally posted by galveston75Still no answer?
I don't believe in a "fully fledged person" spending an eternity suffering in a burning hell either. That is not taught in the Bible at all. That is a pagan docrtine that was brought into the congregations by pagans.
But the point is which you failed to answer is when is a fetus or baby considered to be murdered?
It seems you think only after a full ...[text shortened]... ld and in the womb, it would not be murder then to kill it? How about 7 or 6 or 5 months old?
Originally posted by galveston75You guys finally found something you have in common. That's one more point on which you disagree with Christ Jesus. So how can you honestly claim to be a Christian?
I don't believe in a "fully fledged person" spending an eternity suffering in a burning hell either. That is not taught in the Bible at all. That is a pagan docrtine that was brought into the congregations by pagans.
But the point is which you failed to answer is when is a fetus or baby considered to be murdered?
It seems you think only after a full ...[text shortened]... ld and in the womb, it would not be murder then to kill it? How about 7 or 6 or 5 months old?
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
&feature=related
28 Oct 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeWhat's kind of sad is that you absolutely believe what you're saying here.
Yes. It's because we have decent morality and you don't.
WE are the ones with decent morals that are properly grounded in morality.
Morality does not and cannot come from a god of any stripe.
And it certainly does not come from the bible or bible god.
Which advocates among other things capital punishment and slavery.
If you hadn't realised that by now you are really not paying attention to what we are saying.
And that you'll find out just how sad some day.
And uh, what?
You put capital punishment and slavery in the same basket?
okkaaaaay...
28 Oct 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritaaaaaahahahahahaha
indeed it is. to anyone with a higher sense of moral development.
my sense of morality goes higher still:
state sanctioned killing of any kind is murder.
any act of a conscious decision to kill is murder.
some murder, such as killing in self defense can be justified to a certain extend. but we must be careful not to allow this get out of hand (such as the stand your ground laws). all such cases should be decided in court.
"a higher sense of moral development"
no, sorry, I have to stop here...
you should take your act to Vegas.