- Joined
- 25 Nov 21
- Moves
- 1990
Like all effective lies, this false gospel mixes falsehoods with a kernel of truth and its proponent cherry picks and misinterprets verses and passages from the Holy Bible to support it.
But it’s a straight-up perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Here are the essentials of this false gospel:
• Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world. (This is accurate.)
• Jesus Christ died for everyone’s *past sins.* (This is false.)
• Keeping the commandments and doing good works are the only criteria for gaining eternal life in the Kingdom of God. (This is false.)
• Jesus Christ will judge whose good works and commandment keeping are good enough to gain eternal life in the Kingdom of God. (This is false.)
• Belief in Jesus Christ is not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God - atheists, Muslims, Hindus who did enough good works and kept the commandments well enough also will enter the Kingdom of God. (This is false.)
Here’s the central problem with this false gospel.
If Jesus Christ died for everyone’s *past* sins, what does past refer to? What timeframe? When Jesus Christ died, the sins of everyone living today were in the future.
Now the proponent of this false gospel used to say belief in Jesus Christ was necessary for eternal life, and that past sins referred to sins people committed *before accepting and believing in Jesus Christ.*
But then the proponent of this false gospel said atheists who did good works could get eternal life so belief in Jesus Christ (in his view) was no longer necessary.
So if Jesus Christ died for the past sins of an atheist, what is the reference point that determines the past?
This isn’t the only problem with this false gospel, but it’s a big one.
I’ll wait (perhaps in vain) for the proponent of this false gospel to explain what timeframe “past sins” refers to before I start to list other problems with it.
@pb1022 saidThe Final Judgment. A lengthy explanation by Christ about what is required, and more importantly WHY it is required, before you enter the Kingdom of God. Not one word about faith. All men stand before Christ and are judged according to their works.
Like all effective lies, this false gospel mixes falsehoods with a kernel of truth and its proponent cherry picks and misinterprets verses and passages from the Holy Bible to support it.
But it’s a straight-up perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Here are the essentials of this false gospel:
• Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world. (This is accurate.) ...[text shortened]... ospel to explain what timeframe “past sins” refers to before I start to list other problems with it.
Doing Good works = eternal life. Doing nothing = damnation
Your church preaches a doctrine of doing nothing, so I can understand your dilemma. The 'WHY' good works are necessary is ignored by your church. Good works to others mean you are helping Christ. If you do not do good works to others you are NOT helping Christ, and in fact ignoring Christ.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.(Matthew 25:31-46 KJV)
The very last words of Christ: in the bible
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.(Revelation 22:12-15 KJV)
EVERY MAN judged according to his WORKS
Those who do his commandments get life
Others are destroyed
Not a single word about faith.
Righteous Christians are a separate group of people. These have BOTH faith and Good works. They are the ones who will rule with Christ for the 1,000 yr period. These escape the final judgment. These are the ones Jesus calls his sheep that no man can pluck out of His hand, they are the elect, the ones pre-ordained by God.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.(Revelation 20:6 KJV)
- Joined
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- Moves
- 1990
@Rajk999
I’d be happy to respond to the verses you cited later tonight (I live on the East Coast of the USA) or tomorrow, but I just want to be clear:
You believe, if I understand your most recent posts correctly, that Jesus Christ died for “past sins.”
You also believe atheists and non-Christians (those who do not believe in Jesus Christ) can go to Heaven based on good works and keeping commandments. So, in their case, what do “past sins” refer to? What event in their lives delineates past sins that are forgiven from future sins that are not?
- Joined
- 25 Nov 21
- Moves
- 1990
@medullah saidI believe Jesus Christ died for all sins - past, present and future - of someone who has accepted Him and who believes in Him and His Resurrection a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.
@PB1022
It's an interesting post but I'd prefer to do this in bite sized chunks.
So if we go down to the bit about Jesus dying for past sins, then just to clarify, do you maintain that it is for future sins as well ?
I believe God exists outside of time - in fact, in the Holy Bible, He declares He knows the end from the beginning - and that He knows all of our sins from birth to death. That is how and why I believe He can and does forgive future sins when we accept and believe in Him.
There are verses in the Bible that support that position as well.
@PB1022
I don't disagree so far, but following on do you differentiate between what somebody does which is sinful. Are we saying that he died for all sins (I'm thinking more future really) irrespective of intent and circumstance? I'm not trying to trip you up, but more to understand your perspective.
@pb1022 saidThe bible says sins that are past. Also it says if a professed Christian continues with a life of sin there is no guarantee of forgiveness.
@Rajk999
I’d be happy to respond to the verses you cited later tonight (I live on the East Coast of the USA) or tomorrow, but I just want to be clear:
You believe, if I understand your most recent posts correctly, that Jesus Christ died for “past sins.”
You also believe atheists and non-Christians (those who do not believe in Jesus Christ) can go to Heaven based on go ...[text shortened]... to? What event in their lives delineates past sins that are forgiven from future sins that are not?
I never said anyone was going to heaven
- Joined
- 25 Nov 21
- Moves
- 1990
@medullah saidYes, I believe He died for all sins, regardless of severity and intent. If you think of it from God’s perspective, our lives on earth are so insignificant time-wise compared to eternity, and we all fall far short of God’s standard.
@PB1022
I don't disagree so far, but following on do you differentiate between what somebody does which is sinful. Are we saying that he died for all sins (I'm thinking more future really) irrespective of intent and circumstance? I'm not trying to trip you up, but more to understand your perspective.
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
(Romans 3:23-26)
There’s a Calvinist doctrine that says man is so depraved, he cannot respond (or I think even understand) God’s offer of salvation in Jesus Christ unless God draws him.
Does God draw everyone? I personally think so, but I think some people are so depraved, they have no interest in hearing or responding to God.
Then you get into the area of predestination - are some people destined to be saved and others to be damned? How much free will does man have in salvation?
Lastly, I also think about what the Holy Bible says about how one is saved - it always talks about “believe” and “believe in thine heart.” It’s not as simple, imo, as saying a prayer or reciting a few words. The belief in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection has to be genuine, and that’s not always easy to come by. I had to believe it intellectually before I could believe it in my heart. Some people hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ (the Good News) and believe it in a heartbeat. That wasn’t me.
I looked into evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ for a few months before I believed it, and the Old Testament’s Messianic prophecies were the clincher. He fulfilled them.
Didn’t mean to ramble, but yes, I believe He forgives all sins - past, present and future and regardless of severity and intent - of those who accept and believe in Him.
I think there are convicted killers on Death Row who are genuinely saved.
But if someone commits a sin incredibly heinous, is he too depraved to respond to the salvation offered by Christ? Could be.
@pb1022 saidWhat "False Gospel"?
Like all effective lies, this false gospel mixes falsehoods with a kernel of truth and its proponent cherry picks and misinterprets verses and passages from the Holy Bible to support it.
But it’s a straight-up perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Here are the essentials of this false gospel:
• Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world. (This is accurate.) ...[text shortened]... ospel to explain what timeframe “past sins” refers to before I start to list other problems with it.
You're talking like we know what you're talking about. How about a link to whatever you're talking about?
@medullah saidTaking away the sins of the world if it isn't all, it is only some, and if there are some not accounted for, you are a sinner before God dying in your sins. They used to sacrifice yearly for sins and would do it again and again, but Jesus laid down His life once for all so that in Him we could find rest. Another reason why missing this great salvation is horrible is that God's grace is offered to all through faith, a gift, not a paycheck for things well done.
@PB1022
It's an interesting post but I'd prefer to do this in bite sized chunks.
So if we go down to the bit about Jesus dying for past sins, then just to clarify, do you maintain that it is for future sins as well ?
@medullah saidYou will notice Medullah that these Christians will twist what the bible says clearly, and add to it to create support for their church doctrine -
@PB1022
It's an interesting post but I'd prefer to do this in bite sized chunks.
So if we go down to the bit about Jesus dying for past sins, then just to clarify, do you maintain that it is for future sins as well ?
Twist - Christ died for sins that are past
Add - past present and future sins are also covered.
The one stated clearly is twisted, and then an addition is made. Notice that nobody can produce a reference for past present and future.
Paul says clearly here what is the fate of Christian Saints in Christ who are born again and who have the Holy Spirit if they continue with a life of sin
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
@pb1022 saidThere is a group of people who will have all their sins taken away and that does not apply to all Christians as you mistakenly believe. These are the elect, the righteous Christians who will reign and rule with Christ.
I believe Jesus Christ died for all sins - past, present and future - of someone who has accepted Him and who believes in Him and His Resurrection a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.
I believe God exists outside of time - in fact, in the Holy Bible, He declares He knows the end from the beginning - and that He knows all of our sins from birth to death. That is how and why I bel ...[text shortened]... n we accept and believe in Him.
There are verses in the Bible that support that position as well.
@kellyjay saidThose who do nothing are the ones missing out on this great salvation. Those who preach and believe that man cannot do anything, all men are filthy sinners, nobody can do good works, are are starting off on the wrong path, and totally contrary to the teachings of Christ. They will miss out. You want the references ?
Taking away the sins of the world if it isn't all, it is only some, and if there are some not accounted for, you are a sinner before God dying in your sins. They used to sacrifice yearly for sins and would do it again and again, but Jesus laid down His life once for all so that in Him we could find rest. Another reason why missing this great salvation is horrible is that God's grace is offered to all through faith, a gift, not a paycheck for things well done.