@pb1022 saidWhat a convoluted mess of nonsense. I wont bother reading that confused post. Cant you write clearly?
No Christian I know of does “nothing.”
No Christian I know of says Christians cannot do “good works.”
Your mental stumbling block, imo, is you can’t envision anyone doing good works or doing his best to obey the commandments without the threat of hell hanging over him.
You can’t envision anyone doing good works or doing his best to obey the commandments *out of love f ...[text shortened]... that passage:
“And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
(Luke 7:50)
This is not about who you know or who I know, neither is it about what you do or what I do. If the discussion is brought down to that level then I have nothing to say further.
This is about what Jesus and the Apostles about the Gospel.
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@rajk999 saidFirst off all, I never said non-Christians are “going to burn in hell for eternity.” There is a doctrine known as Annihilationism that has Biblical support and that says the souls of non-Christians are destroyed after death. Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know.
There are born-again Christians who are murderers, pedophiles, rapists and all who have committed all manner of sick and depraved acts of violence. Some of these are pastors and leaders of a church. Your doctrine says that these will get eternal life, while simple humble nonChristian people who are feeding the poor and clothing the naked are going to burn in hell for eternit ...[text shortened]... depraved you mind is. Thankfully Jesus Christ and all the Apostles preached the complete opposite.
What I do know is that non-Christians are not saved and will not spend eternity with God in Heaven. Why? Because their sins aren’t forgiven.
Because non-Christians rejected Jesus Christ, their sins have not been forgiven and they will die in their sins. And die in all of them.
Forgiveness of sins is through accepting and believing in Jesus Christ.
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
(Matthew 26:28)
Jesus Christ’s blood is what forgives sins. Those who reject Christ have all of their sins unforgiven. That’s why they aren’t saved and don’t spend eternity in Heaven.
“Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”
(Colossians 1:12-14)
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@rajk999 said<<First Christ died for 2 sets of sins. The one brought into the world by Adam, which Paul called imputed or inherited sin which infected all of mankind. That has been cleared by Christ for ALL PEOPLE. Second, for the professing Christian, at his profession of faith Jesus death on the cross washes him clean of sin, ie his personal sin and he starts afresh. Paul said that subsequent sins are not necessarily forgiven.>>
You are correct and this is a point I have been asking Christians here. First Christ died for 2 sets of sins. The one brought into the world by Adam, which Paul called imputed or inherited sin which infected all of mankind. That has been cleared by Christ for ALL PEOPLE. Second, for the professing Christian, at his profession of faith Jesus death on the cross washes him cle ...[text shortened]... selfish bunch, wanting to promote the doctrine that Christi and the Kingdom of God is all for them.
What about atheists and other non-Christians? What event causes them to “start afresh?”
This is a hole in your false doctrine that’s big enough to drive a truck through.
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 said<<Now regarding the people who lived long ago. I have raised this point as well but Christians shy away from answering clearly.>>
You are correct and this is a point I have been asking Christians here. First Christ died for 2 sets of sins. The one brought into the world by Adam, which Paul called imputed or inherited sin which infected all of mankind. That has been cleared by Christ for ALL PEOPLE. Second, for the professing Christian, at his profession of faith Jesus death on the cross washes him cle ...[text shortened]... selfish bunch, wanting to promote the doctrine that Christi and the Kingdom of God is all for them.
I’ve answered this clearly.
The verse you’re always citing that mentions past sins refers to sins committed before Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection - not an individual’s past sins.
(I don’t remember the verse citation. Was it Romans 3:25?)
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidRight.
All sins are died for, but all sins will not necessarily be forgiven.
Paul made this clear.
Hope you got that
Those who reject Jesus Christ (do not accept Him and do not believe in Him and in His Resurrection) do not have their sins forgiven.
It’s like a teacher who bought gifts for all 30 students in her class. Twenty accepted the gift but 10 rejected the gift. Do those 10 have the gift? No. They rejected it.
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidOh, so now Jesus Christ and Paul preached different doctrines? Only days ago, you said they preached the same thing.
There are no rules that we can make about forgiveness. You can try to, but you have no such authority, and neither does Paul. God has placed into the hands of His Son Jesus, all power regarding this matter of forgiveness and eternal life.
So if you were smart [though over the years you show no such inclination], you would heed the words of Jesus Christ. This constant pr ...[text shortened]... power to forgive sins of whoever he chooses. Jesus does not have to conform to the doctrine of Paul.
When will you realize the reason you’re always contradicting yourself and changing your positions (as well as ignoring relevant questions) is because your doctrine is false?
Jesus Christ personally chose Paul to deliver His (Jesus Christ’s) Gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus said so in Acts 9 and Paul said so in Galatians 1.
Did Jesus Christ make a mistake in selecting Paul?
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidBecause when Jesus Christ died for all sins, those included sins committed before His crucifixion and Resurrection. That’s what past sins refers to in that verse you regularly cite.
Its what I said. Christ died for past sins. What is the difference in you saying sins before the cricification? You are not explaining yourself. What sins did Chrsit die for and where is the passage about Christ dying for past present and future sins Why have you not quoted this passage yet?
But you’re claiming Christ died for a present-day individual’s past sins but not that individual’s sins after he (or she) accepts Christ. You’re claiming those future sins (sins they commit after accepting Christ) are not forgiven. I say they are.
And you *still* haven’t addressed what “past sins” in your false doctrine refers to for atheists and other non-Christians (who you think go to Heaven based on their good works.) Since those people do not accept Christ, what constitutes their “past sins?”
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 said<<What a convoluted mess of nonsense. I wont bother reading that confused post. Cant you write clearly?>>
What a convoluted mess of nonsense. I wont bother reading that confused post. Cant you write clearly?
This is not about who you know or who I know, neither is it about what you do or what I do. If the discussion is brought down to that level then I have nothing to say further.
This is about what Jesus and the Apostles about the Gospel.
Yep. This is your standard dishonest response to a post that blows your false doctrine to smithereens.
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidNo response to Luke 7:36-50?
What a convoluted mess of nonsense. I wont bother reading that confused post. Cant you write clearly?
This is not about who you know or who I know, neither is it about what you do or what I do. If the discussion is brought down to that level then I have nothing to say further.
This is about what Jesus and the Apostles about the Gospel.
Should I start a thread about all the doctrinal questions you won’t answer? I could fill that thread in a matter of hours.
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidNot a single word about faith, huh?
The very last words of Christ: in the bible
[i]And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without ...[text shortened]... ORKS
Those who do his commandments get life
Others are destroyed
Not a single word about faith.
What’s this verse mean?
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
(Hebrews 11:6)
And how about this passage:
“And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.“
(Mark 5:24-34)
And these verses directly following that passage:
“While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.”
(Mark 5:35-36)
Do you seriously want me to go through the Gospels and identify all the times Jesus Christ talked about the importance of faith and belief?
There aren’t enough hours in a week for that.
And in that quote from Revelation, those people outside the gates are those who sinned so repeatedly (and therefore remorselessly) that their sins defined them - that they were identified by their sins.
Those are not Christians who committed a sin, were genuinely remorseful and repented afterwards.
08 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidWhen the Son of Man returns, Not a word about faith
Not a single word about faith, huh?
What’s this verse mean?
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
(Hebrews 11:6)
All Nations, Separated into Sheep and Goats
They are not separated into With Faith and Without Faith
Sheep do good works and get eternal life
Goats do nothing and get cast out.
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidBecause when Jesus Christ returns, no one needs faith to believe. He’s right in front of them.
When the Son of Man returns, Not a word about faith
All Nations, Separated into Sheep and Goats
They are not separated into With Faith and Without Faith
Sheep do good works and get eternal life
Goats do nothing and get cast out.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
(Hebrews 11:1)
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
(1 Corinthians 13:12)
Good works are evidence of salvation, and yes, believers do good works and do their best to keep the commandments. Not as a requirement to be saved but because they are saved.
Your way of thinking is flawed because you think once someone is saved, they do nothing. You can’t imagine someone doing good works or doing their best to obey the commandments out of love and gratitude for Jesus Christ and what He did for them.
You don’t acknowledge or understand the Holy Spirit’s power in changing the heart of a new Christian once that person has accepted Jesus Christ and believed in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection.
You think someone will only do good works if they have the threat of hell hanging over them.
You have no love for Jesus and no love for Christians because you don’t think you’ve been forgiven of your sins.
Can you honestly say you love Jesus? Or do you really fear Him?
“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”
(Romans 8:15)
The Apostle Paul is talking to believers here. If no one knows if they’re saved until after they die and they have their good works and commandment keeping judged by Jesus, what’s Paul talking about here?
Read Luke 7:36-50 -yet another passage you ignore because it doesn’t fit your false doctrine.
@pb1022 saidYou are talking nonsense and embarrassing yourself now. Time to shut up. The fact remains at the end when Jesus returns, its all about who kept the commandments, nothing about faith.
Because when Jesus Christ returns, no one needs faith to believe. He’s right in front of them.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
(Hebrews 11:1)
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
(1 Corinthians 13:12)
Good works are ev ...[text shortened]... re?
Read Luke 7:36-50 -yet another passage you ignore because it doesn’t fit your false doctrine.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.(Revelation 22:12-15 KJV)
Jesus wants good works and righteousness
The reward - eternal life
Who gets it - ALL MEN who keep the commandments
Who is cast out - Sinners and crooks
Makes no difference whether you have faith or not
Makes no difference whether you had the Holy Spirit
Makes no difference whether you are born again
Faith without works is dead, DEAD
Can faith save a man? NO
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidYou have no love in you - no love for Jesus, no love for your fellow man. It’s more than evident in your posts.
You are talking nonsense and embarrassing yourself now. Time to shut up. The fact remains at the end when Jesus returns, its all about who kept the commandments, nothing about faith.
[i]And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed ar ...[text shortened]... rence whether you are born again
Faith without works is dead, DEAD
Can faith save a man? NO [/b]
“By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”
(John 13:35)
Makes no difference if you have faith or not?
What do you make of these verses?
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
(Romans 5:1-2)
“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
(Romans 1:17)
“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”
(Galatians 3:11)
Makes no difference if you have the Holy Spirit?
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
(Romans 8:9)
Makes no difference whether you are born again? You’re contradicting Jesus - something your false doctrine forces you to do:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
(John 3:3-6)
Faith can’t save a man?
“And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.”
(Luke 18:42)
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
(Ephesians 2:8-9)
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08 Dec 21
@Rajk999
Received this verse today as the KJV Verse of the Day:
“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
(Titus 3:4-7)