@pb1022 saidThere are born-again Christians who are murderers, pedophiles, rapists and all who have committed all manner of sick and depraved acts of violence. Some of these are pastors and leaders of a church. Your doctrine says that these will get eternal life, while simple humble nonChristian people who are feeding the poor and clothing the naked are going to burn in hell for eternity. Now that is a truly sick disgusting religion. To believe such doctrines only goes to show how twisted and depraved you mind is. Thankfully Jesus Christ and all the Apostles preached the complete opposite.
I think there are convicted killers on Death Row who are genuinely saved.
08 Dec 21
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@Rajk999
If I understand anything of Christ's mission, what is forgiven is man's sinful nature, not any specific transgression, and therefore sub specie aeternitatis, without reference to specific transgressions in the past, present, or future.
There is an obvious objection to viewing the forgiveness of sin as applying to specific past or specific future transgressions: what about the people who lived before the OT prophets appeared on Earth? What about the people who lived in the Americas, before Christian missionaries went there to convert them? They never knew the OT prophecies and could not have known about the Covenant, so how can they be held to account for transgressing against God's commandments at times when they did not know God's commandments? It would be monstrous to torment these people for crimes (such as idol worship) they did not know to be crimes then.
@moonbus saidYou are correct and this is a point I have been asking Christians here. First Christ died for 2 sets of sins. The one brought into the world by Adam, which Paul called imputed or inherited sin which infected all of mankind. That has been cleared by Christ for ALL PEOPLE. Second, for the professing Christian, at his profession of faith Jesus death on the cross washes him clean of sin, ie his personal sin and he starts afresh. Paul said that subsequent sins are not necessarily forgiven.
@Rajk999
If I understand anything of Christ's mission, what is forgiven is man's sinful nature, not any specific transgression, and therefore sub specie aeternitatis, without reference to specific transgressions in the past, present, or future.
There is an obvious objection to viewing the forgiveness of sin as applying to specific past or specific future tra ...[text shortened]... trous to torment these people for crimes (such as idol worship) they did not know to be crimes then.
Now regarding the people who lived long ago. I have raised this point as well but Christians shy away from answering clearly. It seems that they are all doomed according to the typical doctrine of the church. But that is wrong. Christ died for all people from Adam to in to the future. So whoever lives righteously will enter the Kingdom of God. Paul in Romans 2 makes this point clear. All people will be judged by their own law and there are people who lived righteously in all societies regardless of religion. God is not going to ignore these people neither cast them into hell for eternity. Christians have this wrong.
Christians are typically a selfish bunch, wanting to promote the doctrine that Christi and the Kingdom of God is all for them.
08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidI tell you what if you find someone who preaches that, why don't you talk to them.
Those who do nothing are the ones missing out on this great salvation. Those who preach and believe that man cannot do anything, all men are filthy sinners, nobody can do good works, are are starting off on the wrong path, and totally contrary to the teachings of Christ. They will miss out. You want the references ?
08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidSo you say, if Jesus didn't die for all, then all were not died for; if He didn't die so, all sins could be forgiven, then not all sins were died for. You are very selective; you have some you think are worthy of the grace of God as if any of us could be. We are not; it was the sinners He came to save.
There are born-again Christians who are murderers, pedophiles, rapists and all who have committed all manner of sick and depraved acts of violence. Some of these are pastors and leaders of a church. Your doctrine says that these will get eternal life, while simple humble nonChristian people who are feeding the poor and clothing the naked are going to burn in hell for eternit ...[text shortened]... depraved you mind is. Thankfully Jesus Christ and all the Apostles preached the complete opposite.
08 Dec 21
@kellyjay saidAll sins are died for, but all sins will not necessarily be forgiven.
So you say, if Jesus didn't die for all, then all were not died for; if He didn't die so, all sins could be forgiven, then not all sins were died for. You are very selective; you have some you think are worthy of the grace of God as if any of us could be. We are not; it was the sinners He came to save.
Paul made this clear.
Hope you got that
08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidI got that, do you? Name something unrelated to works that keeps us from God’s forgiveness, from being able to please God.
All sins are died for, but all sins will not necessarily be forgiven.
Paul made this clear.
Hope you got that
@kellyjay saidThere are no rules that we can make about forgiveness. You can try to, but you have no such authority, and neither does Paul. God has placed into the hands of His Son Jesus, all power regarding this matter of forgiveness and eternal life.
I got that, do you? Name something unrelated to works that keeps us from God’s forgiveness, from being able to please God.
So if you were smart [though over the years you show no such inclination], you would heed the words of Jesus Christ. This constant promotion of the idea that only those who profess faith in Christ death and resurrection can possibly be forgiven is utter nonsense. Jesus said no such thing and has the power to forgive sins of whoever he chooses. Jesus does not have to conform to the doctrine of Paul.
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08 Dec 21
@suzianne saidI put bullet points of this false gospel in the OP.
What "False Gospel"?
You're talking like we know what you're talking about. How about a link to whatever you're talking about?
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@rajk999 saidYou’re misinterpreting what past means in that verse you regularly cite. Past in that verse means sins committed before Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection. It’s not referring to a present-day individual’s past sins.
You will notice Medullah that these Christians will twist what the bible says clearly, and add to it to create support for their church doctrine -
Twist - Christ died for sins that are past
Add - past present and future sins are also covered.
The one stated clearly is twisted, and then an addition is made. Notice that nobody can produce a reference for past present and ...[text shortened]... ey crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)[/i]
This verse in Colossians is pretty clear:
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
And check out the very next verse:
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
(Colossians 2:14)
Feel free to check out this article on Hebrews 6:4-6
https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html
EDIT: Removed repeated citation at end of this post.
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidFirst of all, *all Christians* are righteous (have right standing with God) based on their acceptance of Jesus Christ and belief in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection.
There is a group of people who will have all their sins taken away and that does not apply to all Christians as you mistakenly believe. These are the elect, the righteous Christians who will reign and rule with Christ.
The righteousness of a Christian comes from Jesus Christ not that Christian’s self-effort.
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
(2 Corinthians 5:21)
Do you have verses or passages to support your position that only some Christians have all their sins forgiven while other Christians do not?
08 Dec 21
@pb1022 saidIts what I said. Christ died for past sins. What is the difference in you saying sins before the cricification? You are not explaining yourself. What sins did Chrsit die for and where is the passage about Christ dying for past present and future sins Why have you not quoted this passage yet?
You’re misinterpreting what past means in that verse you regularly cite. Past in that verse means sins committed before Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection. It’s not referring to a present-day individual’s past sins.
This verse in Colossians is pretty clear:
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with hi ...[text shortened]... article on Hebrews 6:4-6
https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html
(Colossians 2:13)
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08 Dec 21
@rajk999 saidNo Christian I know of does “nothing.”
Those who do nothing are the ones missing out on this great salvation. Those who preach and believe that man cannot do anything, all men are filthy sinners, nobody can do good works, are are starting off on the wrong path, and totally contrary to the teachings of Christ. They will miss out. You want the references ?
No Christian I know of says Christians cannot do “good works.”
Your mental stumbling block, imo, is you can’t envision anyone doing good works or doing his best to obey the commandments without the threat of hell hanging over him.
You can’t envision anyone doing good works or doing his best to obey the commandments *out of love for Jesus Christ and all He has done (and continues to do) for them.*
You really should read this account in the Gospel of Luke. Jesus is talking about forgiveness and love.
“And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.
And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
(Luke 7:36-50)
Note especially the last verse in that passage:
“And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
(Luke 7:50)