17 Jun 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI wouldn't worry about eternity. It is the here and now that is important.
[b]"Eternity" [First published Fri Jan 20, 2006; substantive revision Thu Feb 4, 2010]
"Concepts of eternity have developed in a way that is, as a matter of fact, closely connected to the development of the concept of God in Western thought, beginning with ancient Greek philosophers; particularly to the idea of God's relation to time, the idea of ...[text shortened]... , then maybe I should think again about temporal vs. eternal issues for my sake and my family's.[/b]
Ha, ha, i can hear the quotes of my "friends", the Christians. Store up riches in heaven. Ya, ok, but how do we do this my friends. Do we do this by yelling to the rooftops that "I am saved". Or do we do what Jesus asks of us (something my "brothers" totaly forget about) feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help those who cannot help themselves. This is what sonhouse does. And he will be in heaven before any of you who condemn him.
How can i say such things you ask. How could John the Baptist condemn Herod. It is the same fire that burnt in him as burns in me.
17 Jun 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipSonship, you have misunderstood my post 100%. Both these statements that you are accusing me of, are entirely wrong.
You're proposing that God needs to be judged and is unrighteous. IE. The designer of the Titanic was an evil and incompetent inventor.
You wish to blame God for the blind pride of man.
.
Remember, we are talking about Eternity, and Eternal Hellfire for unbelievers, which you believe in and I don't
MY contention is that God is just and loving. He will NOT be more cruel than the worst sadist that you know. From that follows that he will NOT allow people to be tortured for ever and ever and ever and ever, no matter what choices they make here on earth.
YOUR point, (and that of GB, RJH and others) is that GOD does not send us to hell, he has made a way open and if anybody does not take that avenue out, ( The Free Offer of Salvation) then it is THEIR fault, not God's.
It is in THAT context that you gave your many examples, including the one that if anybody on the Titanic did not avail themselves of the offered salvation, then it is THEIR OWN FAULT, and NOT that of the Titanic's owners that they drowned.
THAT IS ALL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! Are you agreed that this is the issue?
We are not at all talking about the Titanic per se, and the implications concerning human pride, etc etc.
I totally agree with you that there is a Free Offer on the table. However, the reason why people make different choices are NOT always obvious, like RJH likes to say they are ignorant, they don't believe the Bible, etc. Sometimes people can see that the human agent that offers the choice on behalf of the divine is, to say the least, obnoxious and arrogant, thus totally discrediting the Offer, or they were born into another culture where the Free Offer is actually against the law and punishable by death, or a myriad other reasons.
Be that as it may, you simply CANNOT say that because the FREE OFFER provided by Western Christianity in all its different garments is refused, the guilty party must now burn in excruciating torment for ever and ever.
You are accusing me of a wrong picture of God - an incompetent designer of a system which does not work, and he should have known better (by my own feeble and deficient yardstick).
I, on the other hand, accuse you of painting a picture of God that is infinitely worse than Hitler, Pol Phot, Stalin all rolled into one and multiplied a zillion times.
THAT is the issue under discussion.
17 Jun 14
Originally posted by CalJust
There are two kinds of people on earth - those that divide everybody into two kinds, and those who don't
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
The human race will be divided into two categories for eternity: believers and unbelievers in Jesus Christ. (John 3:18, 36)
Originally posted by CalJust
There are two kinds of people - those that divide everybody into two kinds, and those who don't
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [a]only begotten Son of God." Footnotes: a. John 3:18 Or unique, only one of His kind. New American Standard Bible | John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Footnotes: a.John 3:36 Or believe. New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Two kinds of people: those who accept absolute truth on the Authority of the Inspired Word of God, and those who refuse to.
17 Jun 14
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"There are two kinds of people in this world: those who believe there are two kinds of people in this world and those who are smart enough to know better."
Two kinds of people: those who accept absolute truth on the Authority of the Inspired Word of God, and those who refuse to.
- The Authoritative and Inspired Words of Tom Robbins, from his book: Still Life with Woodpecker
Originally posted by CalJustFrom what I see in the Bible there are three groups that we know about in the age of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22.
There are two kinds of people on earth - those that divide everybody into two kinds, and those who don't
1.) Sons of God in the New Jerusalem. These are the most important because they meet God's eternal purpose.
2.) Nations ruled over by the sons of God who partake of the blessings of the eternal age. They are not born again and not the sons of God. They are like Adam and Eve were in their state of innocence before the fall of man.
3.) The Lost whose names were not recorded in the book of life. These are in the lake of fire as an eternal punishment.
(this is sonship using gswilm's session)
17 Jun 14
Originally posted by gswilm... verse reference?
From what I see in the Bible there are three groups that we know about in the age of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22.
1.) Sons of God in the New Jerusalem. These are the most important because they meet God's eternal purpose.
2.) Nations ruled over by the sons of God who partake of the blessings of the eternal age. They are not b ...[text shortened]... are in the lake of fire as an eternal punishment.
(this is sonship using gswilm's session)
Originally posted by CalJustCaljust, my replies will be very brief. Books have been written. This is just exchanging short discussion sentences.
Sonship, you have misunderstood my post 100%. Both these statements that you are accusing me of, are entirely wrong.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
Remember, we are talking about Eternity, and Eternal Hellfire for unbelievers, which you believe in and I don't
I believe that God has indicated in terms easy for the most people to understand that eternity apart from God is only bad. Reconciliation to God is vital.
MY contention is that God is just and loving. He will NOT be more cruel than the worst sadist that you know. From that follows that he will NOT allow people to be tortured for ever and ever and ever and ever, no matter what choices they make here on earth.
I think the revelation of God is one of absolutes.
The best possible destiny is revealed.
And the worst possible destiny is also revealed.
That is two ultimate ends of the full scope of God's dealings with His creatures.
Now the scope of the distance between may be more extensive then we assume. But even so, there are still two polar opposite extremities.
"Behold then the kindness and severity of God" (Rom. 11:22a)
Not just the great kindness of God is revealed in His word.
But the great severity of God is also revealed as an extreme polar opposite.
YOUR point, (and that of GB, RJH and others) is that GOD does not send us to hell, he has made a way open and if anybody does not take that avenue out, ( The Free Offer of Salvation) then it is THEIR fault, not God's.
Not a book here Caljust. Just a short word in discussion style.
Whatever we argue about election or predestination as a rationale to absolve each person from fault, one thing seems clear to me. That is God has shown no one who has no chance and who has.
As far as the gospel preacher knows, everyone is in a position to hear the message of salvation. I don't think God has ever whispered to anyone - "Don't love this one or speak to that one, because I intend them to be lost anyway. So don't interfere."
Somehow on the outside of the door of the kingdom it says "Whosoever wills ..." . But once you are on the inside and turn around, the sign says "Chosen before the foundation of the world."
Don't ask me how these two work together. That is too difficult an issue for me to explain. I trust God that He seems to have said both.
No book here. You can get large volumes that go into this.
It is in THAT context that you gave your many examples, including the one that if anybody on the Titanic did not avail themselves of the offered salvation, then it is THEIR OWN FAULT, and NOT that of the Titanic's owners that they drowned.
No one I know in history has beforehand a LIST of the people alive that God does not want to save.
I might add that to understand the Bible only from this viewpoint probably leads to some misunderstanding of the Bible.
In other words to view the Bible solely through the lens of a comparing of statistics on who God saves and who He does not, probably causes some misunderstanding of the overall total revelation of God to man.
THAT IS ALL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! Are you agreed that this is the issue?
I agree that that seems to be the only thing you want to talk about here.
I totally agree with you that there is a Free Offer on the table. However, the reason why people make different choices are NOT always obvious, like RJH likes to say they are ignorant, they don't believe the Bible, etc. Sometimes people can see that the human agent that offers the choice on behalf of the divine is, to say the least, obnoxious and arrogant, thus totally discrediting the Offer, or they were born into another culture where the Free Offer is actually against the law and punishable by death, or a myriad other reasons.
If you would like to introduce thoughts which you think help the discussion then you must allow me the freedom to do so as well.
No specific comment yet.
Be that as it may, you simply CANNOT say that because the FREE OFFER provided by Western Christianity in all its different garments is refused, the guilty party must now burn in excruciating torment for ever and ever.
I don't see refusal of Christ as salvation as refusal of "Western Christianity in all its different garments."
When Jesus says "No one comes to the Father except through Me" I do not read that as "No one comes to the Father except through Western Christianity in all its different garments."
To me the "except through Me" has everything to do with "Me" being a living Person. And the ways in which the living Person of the Divine "Me" of Jesus reveals Himself are probably beyond traditional religious assumptions.
You are accusing me of a wrong picture of God - an incompetent designer of a system which does not work, and he should have known better (by my own feeble and deficient yardstick).
Sorry if I generalized assumed objections and addressed them, mentioning you unfairly.
(this is sonship writing under gswilm's Session)
18 Jun 14
Originally posted by gswilmSame age as my Mom in December, 2011. A believer in Christ's physical death is as Paul said: "Profit [or great gain]. No more suffering or pain; and sharing the perfect happiness of God face to face for eternity. When you get home is fine.
Grampy, wait until I can get home with my own id.
My mother died this week, I am at some relative's house tending to many matters.
She was 92. She was a believer in our Lord Jesus Christ.