Faith transcends logic

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Faith in a non existent deity transcends very little, and certainly not logic.

No one is asking anyone to believe in a nonexistent deity.

@kellyjay said
There is a limited number of things we have proof positive for, which means that for you and me we live by our faith, we put together our worldviews by what we accept as true. As it is we act and judge things by what we profess and believe to be true, this is how all of us act, with some information, and not always proof positive.

Trouble comes when we are wrong we will ...[text shortened]... hould analysis as far as natural causes can take us, but when they fail, something else is going on.

You attribute to me views I do not hold.

When a religion makes claims about the natural world (about human biology, for example), I look first to the natural world to see whether those claims can be verified.

I accept that there are things we don't understand and cannot explain materialistically. I accept that many people live their lives based on principles they profess but cannot prove rationally or defend cogently when challenged. That does not mean I think they are stupid; but when they try to defend their beliefs with fallacious arguments and bogus historical pseudo-evidence and factual errors (for example, about the age and extent of extant ancient MSS), I call them out for it.

A contradiction by itself is harmless. Trouble comes when people are prepared to slit other's throats or burn them at the stake for holding beliefs at variance with their own, or attempt to enforce conformity by controlling the legislative processes.

@kellyjay said
No one is asking anyone to believe in a nonexistent deity.

All deities are non existent.

Logic eliminates faith.

@mchill said
Faith transcends logic.

This belief is what gives cult leaders their power. Same for dictators.

@moonbus said
You attribute to me views I do not hold.

When a religion makes claims about the natural world (about human biology, for example), I look first to the natural world to see whether those claims can be verified.

I accept that there are things we don't understand and cannot explain materialistically. I accept that many people live their lives based on principles they profe ...[text shortened]... variance with their own, or attempt to enforce conformity by controlling the legislative processes.

You accept all that is here is a mindlessness guided universe, am I wrong? Do you accept there was nothing that started the universe? Do you accept an uncaused universe?

Calling those things you disagree with fallacious, pseudoscience, and even factual errors is not an argument it is simply degrading. So when you are not in agreement you belittle.

A contradiction shows error, if the immaterial and the material is not explained by just the material, then what is required is a transcendent explanation.

@fmf said
I don't think faith transcends logic. Nor do I really think that logic transcends faith. Based on my expertiential knowledge of faith and my knowledge of what it's like to lose faith and not to have faith, I'd say that there's something a bit contrived about framing them as being in competition with each other.

Faith transcends logic.

Transcend:
transitive verb
1 a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of
b : to triumph over the negative or restrictive aspects of : overcome
c : to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)
2 : to outstrip or outdo in some attribute, quality, or power

transitive verb:
: to rise above or extend notably beyond ordinary limits
synonyms see exceed

Based on your experiential knowledge of faith you don't think faith transcends logic?

You're missing information. The very essence of faith demands that it exceed logic because faith is not based in logic, but in belief.

You thought you had faith, but it was vain faith because it produced no fruit because it was based in logic.

I agree though that faith and logic are not in competition with each other, but on the contrary are complimentary.

@vivify said
This belief is what gives cult leaders their power. Same for dictators.

It is disbelief that gives cult leaders and dictators their power, and anyone that promulgates misinformation.

Truth doesn't need anyone to believe it in order for it to be truth.

@josephw said
Faith transcends logic.

Transcend:
transitive verb
1 a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of
b : to triumph over the negative or restrictive aspects of : overcome
c : to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)
2 : to outstrip or outdo in some attribute, quality, or power

transitive verb:
: to rise above or extend notably bey ...[text shortened]... that faith and logic are not in competition with each other, but on the contrary are complimentary.

👍👍

@josephw said
It is disbelief that gives cult leaders and dictators their power, and anyone that promulgates misinformation.

Truth doesn't need anyone to believe it in order for it to be truth.

👍👍

@josephw said
I agree though that faith and logic are not in competition with each other, but on the contrary are complimentary.

I hear what you are saying. But, no. I don't think they are complementary. I think they are akin to two different realms. I think people of faith talking about how their faith and logic are complementary are actually simply being performative. I think they are just trying to signal how very, very, very certain they are about their faith.

@josephw said
It is disbelief that gives cult leaders and dictators their power, and anyone that promulgates misinformation.

Truth doesn't need anyone to believe it in order for it to be truth.

This thread isn't about "truth" it's about faith vs. logic. Cult leaders and dictators promote faith over logic.

@josephw said
Truth doesn't need anyone to believe it in order for it to be truth.

And we can only speculate about what "the truth" is in these matters.

@josephw said
It is disbelief that gives cult leaders and dictators their power, and anyone that promulgates misinformation.

You are mistaken. Misinformation can create extremely strongly-held beliefs.

@vivify said
This thread isn't about "truth" it's about faith vs. logic. Cult leaders and dictators promote faith over logic.

Cult leaders pass off lies as truth, trying to get people to buy into things not true. Simply pushing a little truth to obscure the whole truth to mask a lie is a common thing and not limited to cult leaders.

@moonbus said
I'll grant you straight off the bat that neither science nor logic proves or disproves the existence of a Supreme Being. That's not the issue. The issue is this: when a religion makes claims about the biological history of the human race, such as that it is descended from only two original specimens, this is a claim which is subject to scientific investigation and logical ana ...[text shortened]... e people who attempt clear-headed thinking and open discussion about sacred literature are executed.

I'll grant you straight off the bat that neither science nor logic proves or disproves the existence of a Supreme Being. That's not the issue.


I just made it the issue. 😏