@moonbus saidI communicate with words, this is a word base universe, and it is understandable by us, this is not the result of a galactic and microscopic set of meaningless processes, meaningless processes can only produce what is meaningless, and pointless. We find meaning and reason in the universe; you refuse to see that as worthwhile.
You worship words. Speaking the universe into existence out of nothing... If it's not written down in the Bible, you don't accept it...
I worship the Lord God of heaven and earth, the creator of all things. Revelation is something He gives us as He did in the written word. The Bible is a book, ink on paper, but it points to the living God.
@kellyjay saidAs I said, you worship words. Nothing in the gospels indicates that Jesus thought his teaching was to be carried on in written form. "Go forth. Make disciples of all men" did not mean "make them read the Bible, make them believe stuff." It meant "show all men by this example of a life so lived."
I communicate with words, this is a word base universe, and it is understandable by us, this is not the result of a galactic and microscopic set of meaningless processes, meaningless processes can only produce what is meaningless, and pointless. We find meaning and reason in the universe; you refuse to see that as worthwhile.
I worship the Lord God of heaven and earth, t ...[text shortened]... as He did in the written word. The Bible is a book, ink on paper, but it points to the living God.
19 Jul 23
@moonbus saidI actually agree with most of this. However, my faith demands I take something away from the text of the Bible. Not only a collection of stories, which it certainly is, but a collection (esp. in the OT) of lives lived and the way they lived their faith. This is the connection between the Jews and Christians. Understanding the past is crucial to understanding the future. I agree much is allegory, but I believe some is just people living their lives and how they were touched by God.
My mentor said that faith is being prepared to believe something, no matter what the evidence might be. Including counter-evidence.
It’s not a stupid position to take. It’s just that when I look at what KellyJay, for example, actually believes, regardless whether he has evidence to support it, it’s so incoherent it makes no sense to me.
If one takes the biblical account ...[text shortened]... rent universe of discourse where physical evidence plays a very minor role and not the decisive one.
I do, however, wholeheartedly agree that it is a book more about the wherefore than the how.
19 Jul 23
@suzianne saidI have no objection to that. Someone asked Gandhi what he thought of Christianity and he said “I think it would be a great idea.” I mean, the bit about whatever you do, do it as if you were doing it for God, for love of yourself and your neighbor, seems like a pretty good idea. But then even Jesus cursed a barren fig tree; you can’t always get what you want …
I actually agree with most of this. However, my faith demands I take something away from the text of the Bible. Not only a collection of stories, which it certainly is, but a collection (esp. in the OT) of lives lived and the way they lived their faith. This is the connection between the Jews and Christians. Understanding the past is crucial to understanding the future. ...[text shortened]... God.
I do, however, wholeheartedly agree that it is a book more about the wherefore than the how.
19 Jul 23
@moonbus saidWell, yes, I believe the most effective Christianity is beheld in the one-on-one interactions. Just as the Apostles, as they began their ministries after the resurrection, interacted with those converts they found. Yes, they gave sermons, but the important bit about sermonizing is that it sorted out those who were looking for more explanation from those just looking for a moments entertainment. The meat-and-potatoes Christian teaching is always by example, through the one-on-one interactions. I once knew a minister who always said that his sermons were just the 'big-tent' experience, and that 'real Christianity' was always best done the way Jesus did it -- person-to-person, one at a time.
As I said, you worship words. Nothing in the gospels indicates that Jesus thought his teaching was to be carried on in written form. "Go forth. Make disciples of all men" did not mean "make them read the Bible, make them believe stuff." It meant "show all men by this example of a life so lived."
19 Jul 23
@moonbus saidWell, even though Jesus was the Son of God, he was also fully human. "God among us", as it were. What vexes us also vexed him. The important part is that God got involved. He became one of us to fully understand what it means to be human, good and bad.
I have no objection to that. Someone asked Gandhi what he thought of Christianity and he said “I think it would be a great idea.” I mean, the bit about whatever you do, do it as if you were doing it for God, for love of yourself and your neighbor, seems like a pretty good idea. But then even Jesus cursed a barren fig tree; you can’t always get what you want …
But the rest of it is spot on. As you know, I am far more about the NT than the OT, and that is why I am a Christian and not a convert to Judaism. How we treat each other is far more important than following a bunch of rules which sometime seem incomprehensible.
@suzianne saidI think even Jews must find some of the OT restrictions incomprehensible. Do you know the book “The Year of Living Biblically”? Can’t remember the author now. My sister, the Pentecostalist, recommended it to me. It’s hilarious, as he documents his adventure. (She finds it hilarious, too.)
Well, even though Jesus was the Son of God, he was also fully human. "God among us", as it were. What vexes us also vexed him. The important part is that God got involved. He became one of us to fully understand what it means to be human, good and bad.
But the rest of it is spot on. As you know, I am far more about the NT than the OT, and that is why I am a Christian ...[text shortened]... ch other is far more important than following a bunch of rules which sometime seem incomprehensible.
19 Jul 23
@moonbus saidI'll have to look it up.
I think even Jews must find some of the OT restrictions incomprehensible. Do you know the book “The Year of Living Biblically”? Can’t remember the author now. My sister, the Pentecostalist, recommended it to me. It’s hilarious, as he documents his adventure. (She finds it hilarious, too.)
@kellyjay saidYou don't "know" how it all began, either, KellyJay. Just because you subscribe to a particular strand of theology does not mean you "know how it all begins". Nobody "knows" how it all began. You are pretending that you do. Then you make assertions, based on this conjecture, about "why we are here" and "where we are going" that are merely subjective and aspirational.
Not knowing how it all begins means you have no clue why we are here and where we are going.
20 Jul 23
@moonbus saidYou should study the scriptures maybe you would recall how God had them written. The Holy Spirit is involved, the Comforter who leads and teaches us, remember, Jesus spoke about Him, the One who came after Jesus was taken up.
As I said, you worship words. Nothing in the gospels indicates that Jesus thought his teaching was to be carried on in written form. "Go forth. Make disciples of all men" did not mean "make them read the Bible, make them believe stuff." It meant "show all men by this example of a life so lived."
20 Jul 23
@kellyjay saidI have. Not only the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, but many others as well, including the Bagavad Gita, the Upanishads, ancient Buddhist texts, Hesiod, Theognis, the Book of Mormon, the Koran, to name the better-known. So many have claimed that higher powers speak through them … but just because they say so doesn’t make it true.
You should study the scriptures maybe you would recall how God had them written. The Holy Spirit is involved, the Comforter who leads and teaches us, remember, Jesus spoke about Him, the One who came after Jesus was taken up.
20 Jul 23
PS In all that mass of sacred literature, for me two of the most profound nuggets of wisdom occur in the Koran. I paraphrase:
"To every people, a messenger is sent. It is not necessary for you to know who the other ones were."
One might draw the conclusion that the messages, too, might have been different, but just to confirm, another Koranic verse runs:
If I had so willed it, all men could have worshipped in the same way, but I did not so will it. Wherefore, vie with each other in doing good works."
20 Jul 23
@moonbus saidThen you know the Holy Spirit is the one who moves those who wrote the scriptures to do just that. Jesus spoke about how the Holy Spirit was going to come to teach us, and since writing has been a tool since the beginning and you think because you don't see Jesus saying write this down nothing should be written?
I have. Not only the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, but many others as well, including the Bagavad Gita, the Upanishads, ancient Buddhist texts, Hesiod, Theognis, the Book of Mormon, the Koran, to name the better-known. So many have claimed that higher powers speak through them … but just because they say so doesn’t make it true.
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
20 Jul 23
@moonbus saidYou can treat every bit of all religions equally if you like, that does take the Word of God and treats it no differently than all of the other beliefs texts. Not much different than when you dismiss absolutes for relative truths, water it real down for what isn't.
I have. Not only the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, but many others as well, including the Bagavad Gita, the Upanishads, ancient Buddhist texts, Hesiod, Theognis, the Book of Mormon, the Koran, to name the better-known. So many have claimed that higher powers speak through them … but just because they say so doesn’t make it true.
As it stands you put yourself as the higher power above all of them, the great decider of what is and isn't worthy.