Favourite Genesis

@petewxyz said
Maybe God is strategic? Perhaps God nurtures mankind's moral development by putting things out there for us to challenge? A parent does not nurture development without interaction. How do you know these weren't tests in which God hoped to be overruled?

Interesting post and actually along the lines of what I was going to propose to GoaD next.

The God of the bible knows the beginning from the end and if we make the assumption that we have free will then yes, how he interacts with us is something that will be for our benefit and development, not his.

I also want to take this a little further and propose that in the case of the biblical God, we are able to influence him perhaps in the same why that a human child can influence its parents who are content to change their mind based on the outcomes being positive “strategically” - to use your word.

@divegeester said
Interesting post and actually along the lines of what I was going to propose to GoaD next.

The God of the bible knows the beginning from the end and if we make the assumption that we have free will then yes, how he interacts with us is something that will be for our benefit and development, not his.

I also want to take this a little further and propose that in the ...[text shortened]... ontent to change their mind based on the outcomes being positive “strategically” - to use your word.

Jay Haley's word - One of the fathers of Strategic Family Therapy.

Edit: senility begins - De Shazer was solution focused!

@divegeester said
You have used the word “better” presumptively. You would be better off using “differently” because you are making big assumptions about the choices this God would have to make.

You are also incorrectly using “way” in an attempt to reinforce and already flawed theological position whereby you are limiting a deity to how “you and I change our minds”.

You not being a ...[text shortened]... haps what you’ve been taught about the Biblical God in order to accommodate a different perspective.

I have done just that. I have put aside my personal belief that 'God does not exist' and taken God as he is portrayed in the Bible. A perfect, unchanging and infallible deity. It is to such a God that I identify the contradictions that seem to allude you. For such a God to 'change His mind' indicates that His previous plan was deficient in some way and that he isn't actually omniscient.

Let's say you were an architect, the best in your field, and you had designed a perfect city with everything working according to a purpose in every minute detail. If an ant happened along who had no possible conception of your perfect plan and asked you to change it. Would you?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I have done just that. I have put aside my personal belief that 'God does not exist' and taken God as he is portrayed in the Bible. A perfect, unchanging and infallible deity. It is to such a God that I identify the contradictions that seem to allude you. For such a God to 'change His mind' indicates that His previous plan was deficient in some way and that he isn't a ...[text shortened]... ned along who had no possible conception of your perfect plan and asked you to change it. Would you?

I think you might benefit from reflecting on my last two and Petewxyz’s last posts as they address the argument you seem to be stubbornly repeating; they offer explanation on how what you have been grown to believe are contradictions are in fact nuances of free will and strategic omnipotent oversight.

@petewxyz said
Maybe God is strategic? Perhaps God nurtures mankind's moral development by putting things out there for us to challenge? A parent does not nurture development without interaction. How do you know these weren't tests in which God hoped to be overruled?

An interesting God indeed sir, but that isn't the God we are presented with in the Bible.

People who try and overrule the biblical God don't fare so well...

@ghost-of-a-duke said
An interesting God indeed sir, but that isn't the God we are presented with in the Bible.

Actually it is exactly the God in the bible. In fact the entire bible is an account of God’s dealings and interactions with mankind via certain principle characters. The wider concept of prayer and how it is demonstrated, along with the law, the prophets and the spirit of God as being one of the key conduits of intercession is contiguous through scripture.

Apologies for the edits - typos

@divegeester said
Actually it is exactly the God in the bible. In fact the entire bible is an account of God’s dealings and interactions with mankind via certain principle characters. The wider concept of prayer and how it is demonstrated, along with the law, the prophets and the spirit of God as being one of the key conduits of intercession is contiguous through scripture.

Apologies for the edits - typos

Taking God's omniscience as a starting point, I think there is an inherent folly in saying, 'I know you’re planning to do this God, but have you considered this instead?”

Please consider Ephesians 1:11:

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Taking God's omniscience as a starting point, I think there is an inherent folly in saying, 'I know you’re planning to do this God, but have you considered this instead?”

Please consider Ephesians 1:11:

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

The question seems to be how does an omnipotent parent still be a parent? Of course they could just do it all for you themselves and never let you experience figuring it out for yourself, but would that be a successful father?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Taking God's omniscience as a starting point, I think there is an inherent folly in saying, 'I know you’re planning to do this God, but have you considered this instead?”

Please consider Ephesians 1:11:

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

I am surprised that you seem unable to grasp the juxtaposition between predestination as a final designation in eternity, and free will as a construct of the temporal journey, as these aren’t advanced concepts.

Furthermore as I’ve pointed out, several times now, the bible is a huge work of story telling across millennia of how the God therein does exactly what you find to be Inherent folly.

@petewxyz said
The question seems to be how does an omnipotent parent still be a parent? Of course they could just do it all for you themselves and never let you experience figuring it out for yourself, but would that be a successful father?

I think the question does indeed become easier sir when one craftily replaces omniscience with omnipotence.

@divegeester said
I am surprised that you seem unable to grasp the juxtaposition between predestination as a final designation in eternity, and free will as a construct of the temporal journey, as these aren’t advanced concepts.

Furthermore as I’ve pointed out, several times now, the bible is a huge work of story telling across millennia of how the God therein does exactly what you find to be Inherent folly.

We get to change our own path, not God's. Again, it is biblical folly to think otherwise.

@divegeester said

I also want to take this a little further and propose that in the case of the biblical God, we are able to influence him perhaps in the same why that a human child can influence its parents who are content to change their mind based on the outcomes being positive “strategically” - to use your word.

If God is perfect and all-knowing, in what way do you think 'you' can influence Him? How could anything you contribute add strategic value to His perfect plan?!

Again, I think you are struggling with the whole 'omniscient' thing.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
We get to change our own path, not God's. Again, it is biblical folly to think otherwise.

How can one’s thinking be “Biblical folly”? What is that anyway.

No one is suggesting humans change “God’s path”.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If God is perfect and all-knowing, in what way do you think 'you' can influence Him?

We aren’t discussing me.

We are discussing what the bible says about how selected principle characters have interacted with God and how God himself has acknowledged through the bible that he has, on occasion, changed his mind.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
How could anything you contribute add strategic value to His perfect plan?!

As is described in the bible on dozens of occasions. Perhaps you haven’t read it very much.