30 Jan 19
@sonship saidWhat would be the morally sound purpose of causing non-believers to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" after the die [for their non-belief] ~ for all intents and proposes, in secret ~ if the still-living non-believers here on Earth do not know about it?
I have said that according to the Bible rejection of Christ will certainly lead to the rejector going to the same place.
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@FMF
That is correct.
But you have enough belief to go to ask God to help your unbelief.
I know you consider that you have an iron clad argument to reject Christ. " I cannot pretend to believe."
I agree. And I consider my belief in Christ to be something of a miracle. Somehow I know where to go to get faith.
Take the little that I have and ask God for help.
I think you have just enough belief to ask for help.
"Immediately, crying out, the father of the child said, I believe; help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24)
If you want to insist that you are an exception, I won't argue with you. But don't expect me to doubt the word of God.
I have gone to God praying that "I WANT to sin". I came honestly for grace AND RECEIVED IT.
I have gone to God confessing that "Lord I have no faith."
My experience is that God is willing to respond to the honest prayer.
Now I've divided up my reply to you in a few lengthy posts. Excuse me if I do not spend the next 35 posts talking about you.
30 Jan 19
@sonship saidWhat coercive or deterrent effect can your threats of torture possibly have on non-believers? It's such a morally half-baked sounding notion.
@FMF
That is correct.
But you have enough belief to go to ask God to help your unbelief.
I know you consider that you have an iron clad argument to reject Christ. " I cannot pretend to believe."
I agree. And I consider my belief in Christ to be something of a miracle. Somehow I know where to go to get faith.
Take the little that I have and ask God for h ...[text shortened]... eply to you in a few lengthy posts. Excuse me if I do not spend the next 35 posts talking about you.
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30 Jan 19
2 edits
What would be the morally sound purpose of causing non-believers to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" after the die [for their non-belief] ~ for all intents and proposes, in secret ~ if the still-living non-believers here on Earth do not know about it?
Do you think what Devil has done through the millennia has no signigicance that God would not punish him?
Do you think what the Antichrist is described as going to do has no significance?
Do you think that what the False Prophet is said to do should have no consequence from God?
These three are explicitly said to be tormented day and night forever and ever. And that an unbeliever will join them in the same place is evident.
The purpose of placing all the rebels in the same place is that they lose. They go with their leader to share his miserable place forever.
Why can't I opt to not exist?
Why can't I opt to go elsewhere?
Why can't I be judged as less worthy of such punishment?
I am not told enough to fully answer these questions.
Perhaps the penalty will fit the crime.
Perhaps a soul will be frozen in a state of perpetual sinning which will call forth God's perpetual anger.
Perhaps the upper part of the lake of fire will be not as bad as the lowest part.
These are speculations I have sometimes. But I do not let them distract me from the message that men need to be reconciled to an holy and righteous eternal God period. And one of infinite love He is as manifested in Jesus Christ.
We may say "But it shouldn't matter that we are or are not."
Did we make the rules?
And what is the byproduct of a universe in which righteousness dwells in eternal bless and love and harmony and glory ?
Apparently that all that is opposed to the will of God be discarded in a kind of all-encompassing trash can. God sets up a place where all His created being who didn't want anything to do with God, are together in their own place.
Why should we not take His omniscient warning that that place will not be enjoyable - avoid it at all costs through Christ's redemption.
We were created for the New Jerusalem the eternal union of man and God in perfection.
@sonship saidNow I've divided up my reply to you in a few lengthy posts.Actually I have found the tranches of dogma you've dished up to be essentially evasive. I have asked you specific questions about the moral logic behind your assertions. You suggesting I pray to your Christian God is mere dodging.
30 Jan 19
@sonship said"Devil"?
Do you think what Devil has done through the millennia has no signigicance that God would not punish him?
Do you think what the Antichrist is described as going to do has no significance?
Do you think that what the False Prophet is said to do should have no consequence from God?
These three are explicitly said to be tormented day and night forever and ever. And t ...[text shortened]... emption.
We were created for the New Jerusalem the eternal union of man and God in perfection.
"Antichrist"?
"False prophet"?
30 Jan 19
@fmf saidThis specific question shows that you do not understand my point. Just as I was not talking about those who claim that they know there is no God, or who have at least made their mind up about that, I am also not speaking of those who have accepted God and made their mind up that he does exist and has shed his blood in remission of their sin. The ones I was speaking of are those on the cusp, those who are seeking, not those who have already decided in one way or the other.
On the contrary, I think you have missed several opportunities to make your point. My question remains unanswered.
But this is typically you. You seek to trash what I am saying by misunderstanding and by misrepresenting and by misapprehending what I am saying. You draw me into this trap when I assume your motivation for doing so, but in fact I cannot ascertain your motivation because it is alien to me.
And for the record, I'm not beholden to your apparent idea that questions are unanswered merely because the answer is not what you were expecting or desiring it to be. Your claim that your question wasn't answered does not change the answer, and neither does your reluctance to hear the answer. And sometimes, believe it or not, you ask the wrong question; you become derailed by non sequitur, like this time.
30 Jan 19
@suzianne saidSo, if the ideology as propagated by KellyJay and sonship ~ that everyone should fear God ~ is true, you think this should be concealed from "those on the cusp" of believing?
The ones I was speaking of are those on the cusp, those who are seeking, not those who have already decided in one way or the other.
Or, if the ideology as propagated by KellyJay and sonship ~ that everyone should fear God ~ is not true, why are you arguing with me about it instead of arguing with them about it.
I am confronting them about the psychological and moral nonsense of the effect of fear on non-believers. And you are... doing what... confronting me about the beliefs of KellyJay and sonship?