28 Jan 19
@suzianne saidI listened to you well enough when you said this: The threat of this wrath coming to us is not an inducement to seek his love, but turns us away out of fear.
You've never listened to me very well, though.
What does "turns us away out of fear" mean in the real context of people's beliefs? One would have to believe the fearful thing exists before being able to fear it. So, an atheist's non-belief is not ~ indeed, cannot be ~ caused by fear.
On the other hand, if a believer is "turned away out of fear" they must presumably believe the entity causing the fear exists and that the peril is real ~ so what does being "turned away" mean?
Loss of belief because the fear-coercion-deterrent-ideology does not make sense - and so it is seen as not credible - I can understand... but loss of belief "out of fear", that doesn't make any sense psychologically speaking.
@kellyjay saidBUMP for KellyJay.
We are taught to fear fire at a young age, fear walking into the street due to cars, getting in cars with strangers. Fear isn't a bad thing, neither is pain it keeps us from truly damaging ourselves. Fearing God is simply acknowledging He is the One that no one can deliver us from if we act stupidly offending and sinning against Him by our actions towards Him or another one of us.
The religious 'fear factor' that the likes of you and sonship preach is moral and psychological nonsense, though.
What coercive or deterrent effect can a threat have on non-believers?
What coercive or deterrent effect did Dasa's threat that atheists and Christians would be reincarnated as cockroaches have on you and me? None. That's right.
What would be the moral purpose of torturing non-believers for eternity after they die if the non-believers who are still alive don't know about it.
Why would any non-Christian "fear" such farfetched and poorly thought-out threats?
29 Jan 19
@fmf saidI am speaking of people who seek God, not those who have decided that he either doesn't exist or is absentee and therefore inaccessible. Those who seek God obviously are either aware that he exists or they are open to his existence. Therefore I am not speaking of those whose minds are inflexible, cast in stone or set in concrete. I don't waste my time assuming to teach those who cannot accept God for whatever reason they claim.
I listened to you well enough when you said this: The threat of this wrath coming to us is not an inducement to seek his love, but turns us away out of fear.
What does "turns us away out of fear" mean in the real context of people's beliefs? One would have to believe the fearful thing exists before being able to fear it. So, an atheist's non-belief is not ~ indeed, cann ...[text shortened]... nderstand... but loss of belief "out of fear", that doesn't make any sense psychologically speaking.
29 Jan 19
@fmf saidYou seem to be struggling to get a reply from KellyJay, I wonder why that is.
BUMP for KellyJay.
The religious 'fear factor' that the likes of you and sonship preach is moral and psychological nonsense, though.
What coercive or deterrent effect can a threat have on non-believers?
What coercive or deterrent effect did Dasa's threat that atheists and Christians would be reincarnated as cockroaches have on you and me? None. That's right.
What w ...[text shortened]... now about it.
Why would any non-Christian "fear" such farfetched and poorly thought-out threats?
Could it be that the whole concept of trying to scare people who don’t believe in god, to go to god, so that he can save them, from himself....is completely ridiculous?
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Could it be that the whole concept of trying to scare people who don’t believe in god, to go to god, so that he can save them, from himself....is completely ridiculous?
It could be that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7) is the truthful word of God. And the human religious opinion negating this is ridiculous and wickedly foolish.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Prov. 1:7)
One who goes on from this beginning of wisdom must also learn that the Lord pities those who fear Him as a father pities his children. (Psa. 103:13)
King James Version
Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Darby Bible Translation
As a father pitieth his children, so Jehovah pitieth them that fear him.
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I learned this passage very early in my Christian life and never forgot it.
He remembers our frame that we are dust.
As Far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
As a compassionate as a father is toward his children, So compassionate is Jehovah toward those who fear Him.
For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.
...
But Jehovah's loving kindness is from eternity unto eternity upon those who fear Him. And His righteousness is to the children's children." (Psalm 103:13,14,17 Recovery Version)
The fear of God is only objectionable to some fools who want anarchy with no accountability to their Creator. Those who realize He would be our heavenly Father and can remove our transgressions from us an infinity distance (as far as the east is from the west) understand the clean place of the fear of the Lord.
"The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever." (Psalm 19:9)
It is also true that perfect love casts out all fear. So we need to be perfected by the Spirit of Christ into the perfect love of the Son of God. Then perhaps there is still fear but it is not the fear of punishment.
Since I am not perfected in love yet, I cannot tell you by experience what that is like.
29 Jan 19
@sonship saidHow can non-believers "fear" something they don't believe in?
The fear of God is only objectionable to some fools who want anarchy with no accountability to their Creator. Those who realize He would be our heavenly Father and can remove our transgressions from us an infinity distance (as far as the east is from the west) understand the clean place of the fear of the Lord.
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@FMF
But you do believe in God. I said that you find it harder to NOT believe that God is then to resign to the undesired fact that God is.
You put on a good show.
It is as a sport of great enjoyment to you -
"Teach and preach and exhort about the Gospel and I will show you my inexhaustible talent of finding fault with what you say. I can do this forever. I never run out of reasons to doubt what you say, what you say God says."
This is your past time, your sport. You put on a good show. Some on the fence may cheer you on.
I am not impressed. And I think that you know God is real.
But whether I am right or wrong - Being unafraid of what you are unaware of means nothing when God is. Not only of His righteousness and holiness you are unaware, but of His great love and mercy in wanting to reconcile you to Himself, you would be ignorant of also.
Now you will come back with some rationale to wow those who may be impressed with your show of rejection for God. I'm not.
29 Jan 19
@sonship saidNot interested in your over-wrought pouty banter. The question you are dodging is this:
@FMF
But you do believe in God. I said that you find it harder to NOT believe that God is than it is to resign to the undesired fact that God is real.
You put on a good show.
It is as a sport of great enjoyment to you -
"Teach and preach and exhort about the Gospel and I will show you my inexhaustible talent of finding fault with what you say. I can do this ...[text shortened]... with some rationale to wow those who may be impressed with your show of rejection for God. I'm not.
How can non-believers "fear" something they don't believe in?
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29 Jan 19
Ask me how much I am interested in your poetic postering.
Try as hard as you can to imagine that there is no God.
I bet you cannot make it to convince yourself.
But if I am wrong.
Not believing you are going to die one day won't cause the inevitability of your death to go away.
"How can I fear what I don't believe in?"
How can what is real become not real because one has no belief in it? Or at least puts on a good show of it."
29 Jan 19
@sonship saidYou simply have no answer.
Ask me how much I am interested in your poetic postering.
Try as hard as you can to imagine that there is no God.
I bet you cannot make it to convince yourself.
But if I am wrong.
Not believing you are going to die one day won't cause the inevitability of your death to go away.
"How can I fear what I don't believe in?"
How can what is real become not real because one has no belief in it? Or at least puts on a good show of it."
It is psychologically bogus.