- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
29 Jan 19
If you had a morally coherent argument to support your torturer god ideology, presumably you would make it. Simply declaring it "supreme righteousness" is just an assertion. It is not an argument.
I don't have an ideology of Judgment upon unbelievers and a salvation of believers. I have a revelation from the Savior and Judge.
YOu don't have one in history like Jesus whose authority on the revelation carries as much weight of authenticity for your atheism.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
1. Cockroaches can't talk.
I don't think they have a conscience either.
2. There is no memory after rebirth.
When did the first rebirth take place? And why ?
- Why is this difficult for you to understand when you yourself believe the same lack of memory occurs when souls go to heaven?
I don't believe that souls go to heaven.
Have you ever seen me write about souls going to heaven?
Link me in an example if you can find one.
I don't like to leave people hanging and guessing. But I also do not like to labor to explain something only for it to be treated as something they don't want to bother reading.
Maybe I will wait for you to ask me specifically what I believe about departed souls and the resurrection of the dead.
Ask me about something I believe and have taught.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Ghost,
(Is the soul in heaven not the same soul that existed on earth?
The soul departed from the body the Bible discribes as a naked soul. The soul and spirit separated from the physical body is described as an unclothed soul.
God does not want any unclothed soul to appear before Him in heaven. This is an abnormal state for his creature human beings to be in. He makes provision for this abnormal state of nakedness. But it is not to take the naked immaterial part of man to heaven.
The unclothed (naked) soul missing the body of the believer is, in a more relative sense, "with the Lord". But it is not in heaven "with the Lord" .
Aside from fully resurrected and raptured and transformed saints I can locate no verse in the Bible speaking of the dead being in heaven.
Every instance of people in heaven I can locate in the Bible concerns those who have had their bodies resurrected and transfigured into a glorious resurrection body. And they visit heaven but do not stay there forever.
I see the raptured in heaven.
I do not see any merely dead in heaven.
Proof texts can be submitted if you desire to see more biblical rationale.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
29 Jan 19
4 edits
Ghost,
At any rate, the departed rich man in the story Jesus spoke of being in Hades, fully remembered his life.
"But Abraham said, Child, REMEMBER that in your lifetime you fully received your good things, and Lazarus likewise evil things ..." (Luke 16:25a)
The rich man's departed and tormented soul remembered "Lazarus", "Father Abraham" and that he had five brothers who were still alive.
The departed soul of the prophet Samuel also remembered his life as a prophet and King Saul and how Saul had disobeyed God and become a paranoid wreck of a man to whom God would no longer speak.
And Samuel said, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? ... And Samuel said, Why then have you inquired of me? For Jehovah has turned away from you and become your adversary. And Jehovah has done for Himself just as He spoke through me, for Jehovah has torn the kingdom out from your hand and given it to an associate of yours, to David. (1 Sam. 28:15a,16,17)
Deceased Samuel remembered the details of his life as a prophet to King Saul and David.
The souls underneath the altar in the fifth seal in Revelation REMEMBER that they were martyred by the enemies of Jesus Christ and God while they has physically lived.
And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? " (Rev. 6:9,10)
The prophet Ezekiel indicates that the dead slain by tyrants of old will see them also descend into the place of death. They will inquire in amazement that these mighty tyrants have become as weak as they whom they slew.
They realize that they have all ended up in the same realm regardless of their power and status when living. Read through Ezekiel around chapters 30 - 32.
These portions of the Bible indicate that the departed souls remember their lives on earth.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
29 Jan 19
4 edits
Ghost,
And if they have difficulty at the last judgment God has an infallible recording which cannot err. God can bring to our rememberance every detail of our life on earth which we cannot remember.
We should expect to be amazed. Maybe He will show you when you regarded yourself as guilty you did not know all the facts as He did. And you really were not.
Then on the other hand He will may show us where we thought we were innocent and a review of the facts will reveal that we were not.
We are dealing with God. His omniscience is all knowing.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Ghost,
- Not remembering a previous life appears to be part of the mechanism for spiritual growth.
I would recommend for spiritual growth believing that the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from every sin. He can obliterate the nagging memory of the offense against our conscience and God.
It is quite true that we need to let go of the past in order to grow spiritually. That is why His cleansing of our sins is so thorough and complete. He does not remember any more. Turning to the Holy Spirit we too are freed from their lingering memory.
You spend one hour bringing all your known sins, transgression, wrong doings under the blood of Christ by way of confession and thanksgiving to Him for forgiveness. You will grow spiritually. I guarantee that.
God said that He would remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west. The distance of the east from the west is infinite.
Christ in His death on Calvary for you, REMOVES the guilt of your sins from you an infinite distance. Then He works to transform you in sanctification.
Sanctification is our hope not reincarnation.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
30 Jan 19
1 edit
Definition of ideology
1a : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
b : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
c : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideology
Okay, I have an ideology like I also have one about the law of gravity. Arguments as to the contrary, do not convince me of having an error.
God will be the judge of the living and the dead. Arguments to the contrary, do not convince me of having an error.
Sooner or latter we all will believe and trust someone for our ideology, if you will.
I trust Jesus Christ on the matter of salvation before God.
30 Jan 19
1 edit
@sonship saidOK, so I "do not convince [you] of having an error". Just as well then that I am not asserting that some inexplicably demented non-stop violence is going to be visited upon you after you die for having had different beliefs from me.
God will be the judge of the living and the dead. Arguments to the contrary, do not convince me of having an error.
What is the purpose of telling non-believers that they are going to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" for being non-believers by an entity they don't believe exists?
And what would be the morally sound purpose of causing non-believers to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" after the die [for their non-belief] ~ for all intents and proposes, in secret ~ if the still-living non-believers here on Earth do not know about it?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
30 Jan 19
OK, so I "do not convince [you] of having an error". Just as well then that I am not asserting that some inexplicably demented non-stop violence is going to be visited upon you after you die for having had different beliefs from me.
You don't know that non-stopped rebellion and sin will not result in non-stopped judgment.
You do what you want. I think to listen to Christ is wiser.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
30 Jan 19
I am not asserting that some inexplicably demented non-stop violence is going to be visited upon you after you die for having had different beliefs from me.
That is a warping of the Gospel message on a couple of levels.
If the law of gravity has it that you will fall to the ground and probably die if you jump out of the window of a ten story building, if I affirm that law, you do not die as a punishment for disagreeing with me.
You are twisting not being reconciled to the righteousness of the holy God as - the danger of personally disagreeing with me.
I as a person on the Titanic am warned of the impending danger of the ship sinking. I can be believe or disbelieve your warning. It is stupid to take my drowning for disbelief in the cold waters of the Atlantic as your personal vendetta against me for disagreeing with me.
Your philosophy "Hell is punishment for not agreeing with Christians" is a warped twisting of the matter.
I may drown as the Titanic goes down. As I slip beneath the waves I cannot yell "You petty vengeful man. I am being drowned just because we had an argument of disagreement."
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
30 Jan 19
2 edits
What is the purpose of telling non-believers that they are going to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" for being non-believers by an entity they don't believe exists?
So that they would not be tormented day and night forever and ever by God who exists - WHEN a salvation from that same God has been graciously offered ?
However, I for one, am more careful then you think in what I write.
What I, sonship, have written is that the Bible says that the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet are explicitly said to go to a place where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I have said that the Bible says all whose names are not written on the book of life go to the SAME place.
Over the years, ( as YOU have followed me around to practically beg me for more arguments,) I have said that according to the Bible rejection of Christ will certainly lead to the rejector going to the same place.
If you disagree you can cut and paste my explicit words to you " FMF, YOU are going to be tormented day and night forever and ever."
You won't find me speaking like that. You will find me quoting many verses about being saved and Revelation 20:15 about the prediction of those whose names are not found written in the book of life.
Jesus does tell us Who it is who we should fear. And taking those words in isolation some critics may exploit them to portray the Savior Jesus as a bully.
But immediately after those words about WHOM men should fear are words to "FEAR NOT" if we are in His care.
This time I highlight the words FOLLOWING the dire warning of Jesus.
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One.
are not five sparrows sold for two assria? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
But even the hairs on your head have all been numbered, DO NOT BE AFRAID; you are of more value than many sparrows." (Luke 12:4-7)
You do whatever you want to in reaction to Christ's words.
But any attempt to present a caricature of Him or His disciples that ONLY FEAR is at the core of the message is at best a lopsided biased exaggeration. It is not honest.
Both to FEAR and to NOT BE AFRAID are the balanced teaching of Jesus.
It depends on where you stand in relation to the God and Savior of the world. There is Divine Law that can be transgressed. But there is also Divine Grace and salvation through the Savior's love.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
As I read the Gospel I see to command that we love Christ as important but not primary. What is primary is that we believe in Christ.
Many of us have found Him believable.
It is not as if anyone came and spoke this authoritative words. It is that someone perfect came and spoke them.
You do what you will to do. But your caricature that my God warns you not to disagree with me personally or else you'll be punished is a warped understanding of the message.
And the hope that it should not matter to God that we transgress the law of God assumes our sloppy self serving permissiveness should also be the attitude of God, is ill conceived.
The assumption that God should be partial and relax because He does love me, is also ill conceived. Love us He does - greatly. But God will not give up His righteous nature for the sake of His loving those whom He created.
It has been over a decade now when you have followed me from thread to thread trying to show your Atheism makes more sense than the Gospel of Christ. Maybe you have reinforced your belief. Maybe some readers have been convinced with your arguments.
All have not, I think. You have your little season to try your best to point men to trust in you over Jesus Christ. This little season of time will pass quickly before you know it, though it seems a long time.
I think you are laboring to be on the wrong side of history and truth.
@sonship saidFMF: What is the purpose of telling non-believers that they are going to be "tormented day and night forever and ever" for being non-believers by an entity they don't believe exists?
So that they would not be tormented day and night forever and ever by God who exists - WHEN a salvation from that same God has been graciously offered ?
sonship: So that they would not be tormented day and night forever and ever by God who exists - WHEN a salvation from that same God has been graciously offered ?
I am talking about non-believers. You seem to be preaching to the choir - which, you ought to know, doesn't work with non-believers.
What is the purpose of telling non-believers that they are going to be tortured by an entity they don't believe exists?
It's Alice in Wonderland-esque.