Holy spirit

Originally posted by Agerg
The free-will you are talkng about is merely pseudo free-will similar to the way my computer has pseudo free-will to crash sometimes.

Firstly, (and Ihave to keep saying this) I don't throw out or reject eternity, though would be keen to know how you define your "5th dimension: eternity"

Is there a 6th dimension of magic too???

Exactly what do you mean by eternity is a dimension?, please indulge my ignorance here

My point is that the whole debate depends on the hypothetical assumption that God is eternal and exists in a way that we can only imagine and that would blow our minds (and will when we get there).

Describing eternity as a 5th dimension seems the logical way forward because it gives us some idea of how different (and wierd) things would appear to us in only 4 dimensions. It's the old "imagine what a circle in Flatland would make of a sphere " argument. A circle would have no idea how a sphere could get bigger and smaller just by moving about because it has no concept of 3 dimensions.

This is analogous for how we feel about this whole time thing , we can't see beyond the frontiers of time because it's the last of our dimensions.

The other point is that if we are going to have a debate about what an eternal God might be able to do whilst at the same time it appearing contradictory to us , then we had better appreciate that eternity is likely to be radically different from space/time or not even bother with the debate.

My point is that if God exists in space /time then I would agree that your position is correct. But then a space/time god is not worth debating or considering. He would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
No. As stated, we made our choices.

Did we make them with conscious reflection? The choice that I think I am making now, I made some time ago? When? I'm not sure that tw's initial response to this was mistaken...

I know you'll hate this (based on past discussions) but this is starting to sound like Nietzschean territory...

Originally posted by knightmeister
2) God knows which of these I will choose prior to my making the choice
----------visted------------------------

2) can only be true in an absolute sense if all choices occur at a specific "time" and not before. You can only subscribe to 2) by invoking a newtonian clock against which all things happen at an appointed time which is true for all beings and all existence.

First, that was not my premise: I took it from Freaky, and repeated it to him in a reformulation of his inference.

Second, what would it mean to say that all choices occur at a "nonspecific" time?

Originally posted by knightmeister
i don't think he is a "single unchanging being throughout" . I think that the trinity tells us something quite interesting here. God enters into space/time in a specific way in Jesus. Jesus shows signs of his limitations by living as a real man. He does not know everything that will happen.

The trinity is not static and neither is space/time stat ...[text shortened]... s that it is not static , but maybe it is in your head somewhere in fantasy geometric model.

But doesn't that mean that it is incorrect to claim that God knows the future? Why don't we say 'parts of God know the future', or 'the future God knows the future'?
My claim is that the parts of God that exist within space time cannot know of future events (relative to those parts) as long as libertarian free will exists.

Originally posted by twhitehead
OK, I misunderstood you.

What do you think about Gods ability to interact with time. If he already knows the future, can he change it (through interaction) and if so, does he then forget what he previously knew?

The future, the present and the past--- all of time--- is but one comprehensive whole. Although God interacts with man in time (which, by the way, was invented merely for our convenience), God does not change the future.

Originally posted by vistesd
Did we make them with conscious reflection? The choice that I think I am making now, I made some time ago? When? I'm not sure that tw's initial response to this was mistaken...

I know you'll hate this (based on past discussions) but this is starting to sound like Nietzschean territory...

The choices we are making now are being made now. The terms I used are an accomodation for our perspective as the concepts relate to God's ability to see all at once.

Bob's knowledge benefits from his ability to travel instantaneously. God's knowledge--- while not aided by His omnipresence--- appears similarly advanced in relation.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The future, the present and the past--- all of time--- is but one comprehensive whole. Although God interacts with man in time (which, by the way, was invented merely for our convenience), God does not change the future.

So if God knows that I will commit murder tomorrow he is powerless to prevent it. Do you agree?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So if God knows that I will commit murder tomorrow he is powerless to prevent it. Do you agree?

The term 'powerless' infers some manner of want, so I can't agree with its use. However, you could just as easily said you were planning on feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, curing the sick, or etc., and God's intervention would remain the same.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The term 'powerless' infers some manner of want, so I can't agree with its use. However, you could just as easily said you were planning on feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, curing the sick, or etc., and God's intervention would remain the same.

Are you saying God never intervenes? I am not sure if I understand you.
What I am asking is whether or not God is able to change use his knowledge of the future for anything useful to him. My claim is that he cannot. I cannot prevent atrocities, cause people to do good or any other action based on his knowledge of the future, because he cannot know what people will do until after (from his perspective) he has created the whole universe in its entirety complete with their actions.

He also cannot tell you what you will do tomorrow.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
The choices we are making now are being made now. The terms I used are an accomodation for our perspective as the concepts relate to God's ability to see all at once.

Bob's knowledge benefits from his ability to travel instantaneously. God's knowledge--- while not aided by His omnipresence--- appears similarly advanced in relation.

But God’s “all at once” is effectively the same as saying that God knows a priori what I choose (as opposed to only ex post facto). You can say it seems like ex post facto from God’s “all at once” perspective. But I don’t see how that changes the logic of the case.

If simple knowledge has no determining agency (I think we all agree on that), then neither does perspective. That is, the relative perspectives have no determining influence on my effective ability to choose: it is neither restricted nor enhanced by the matter of God’s perspective relative to mine.

(1) God knows what I choose;

(2) God cannot be wrong;


(3) I can choose contrary to God’s knowledge.


That is a logical contradiction from whatever perspectives you might impose. Assuming that God’s omniscience entails (1) and (2), and that “free will” entails my effective ability to make a choice among available alternatives, then the conjunction of God’s omniscience and my free will is contradictory—premises (1) and (2) together describe a situation in which I cannot make but one choice without showing one of the premises to be wrong. They describe a situation in which there is no effective free will.

Now, if I am wrong about the import of perspective, you should be able to insert some combination of perspectival clauses into that deductive inference that—without other alteration—relieves the contradiction.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But doesn't that mean that it is incorrect to claim that God knows the future? Why don't we say 'parts of God know the future', or 'the future God knows the future'?
My claim is that the parts of God that exist within space time cannot know of future events (relative to those parts) as long as libertarian free will exists.

But what if when God enters time and space he brings eternity with him? You seem to have the idea that to enter into a dimension from a higher dimension means complete loss of that dimension.

If a part of a sphere enters the world of a circle does the sphere become restricted by 2 dimensions or is its 3 dimensionality preserved ? You could say that the 2 dimensions are just part of a higher 3 dimensions and that the circle is a pale shadow of the spherical world.

The Christian belief is that it's space/time that is the illusion that will one day melt away to reveal the true reality behind. Christians believe we already live in a 5 dimensional universe. When God entered into space time in Jesus he was restricted by space/time but Jesus still made prophecies. Apparently some of them came true.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But what if when God enters time and space he brings eternity with him?

That doesn't make sense to me, nor does it in any way address my points. I have claimed that the God that exists within space time cannot know the future. If he brought eternity with him then even in eternity he cannot know the future.

You seem to have the idea that to enter into a dimension from a higher dimension means complete loss of that dimension.
er. No. I merely claim that once God enters our space time he cannot know the future as such knowledge results in time paradoxes.

The Christian belief is that it's space/time that is the illusion that will one day melt away to reveal the true reality behind. Christians believe we already live in a 5 dimensional universe.
Then you cannot simultaneously believe in libertarian free will. Libertarian free will does not exist in a universe in which the future exists.

When God entered into space time in Jesus he was restricted by space/time but Jesus still made prophecies. Apparently some of them came true.
But his prophesies could not have been a result of knowledge of the future. What would have happened if on hearing his prophesy someone changed his actions causing the prophesy to not come true? Do you see the problem?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are you saying God never intervenes? I am not sure if I understand you.
What I am asking is whether or not God is able to change use his knowledge of the future for anything useful to him. My claim is that he cannot. I cannot prevent atrocities, cause people to do good or any other action based on his knowledge of the future, because he cannot know what ...[text shortened]... its entirety complete with their actions.

He also cannot tell you what you will do tomorrow.

Are you saying God never intervenes?
No. The Bible gives several historical incidents where God did intervene. The Bible also records two future interventions still to come.

What I am asking is whether or not God is able to change use his knowledge of the future for anything useful to him.
As He does not violate anyone’s volition, I’m not sure what utility could be attributed to His use of His knowledge.

I cannot prevent atrocities, cause people to do good or any other action based on his knowledge of the future, because he cannot know what people will do until after (from his perspective) he has created the whole universe in its entirety complete with their actions.
Prior to His creation of the universe, He knew the end from before beginning. That’s some knowledge.

He also cannot tell you what you will do tomorrow.
Not only can He tell me what I will do tomorrow (and every day after that), He is able to tell me what I will think. Not that He will, but He can.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That doesn't make sense to me, nor does it in any way address my points. I have claimed that the God that exists within space time cannot know the future. If he brought eternity with him then even in eternity he cannot know the future.

[b]You seem to have the idea that to enter into a dimension from a higher dimension means complete loss of that dimens ...[text shortened]... esy someone changed his actions causing the prophesy to not come true? Do you see the problem?

er. No. I merely claim that once God enters our space time he cannot know the future as such knowledge results in time paradoxes.

-------whitey-------------

How so?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Prior to His creation of the universe, He knew the end from before beginning. That’s some knowledge.

Am I understanding you correctly, are you saying that God knew the future even before he created the universe? If so, doesn't that contradict the claim (which might not be yours) that he knows the future based on observing what we choose?


Not only can He tell me what I will do tomorrow (and every day after that), He is able to tell me what I will think. Not that He will, but He can.
If he does tell you, wont that potentially change what you do causing a time paradox?