Holy spirit

Originally posted by knightmeister
I imagine God to be without boundaries both in time or space and having no beginning or end.

Pure speculation would lead me to imagine the universe existing as a small ball , funnel whatever within a vast expanse of white light of unimaginable power and holiness.

Within this context I see space/ time as an illusionary facet of the universe but rtainly don't see God as a singularity though.

Are you going to ask me if he has eyes now?

I don't care if your god has eyes, or whether it has eyes in its arse.

I care that your reasoning is contradictory and that this is because you have an incoherent formulation of your gods existence. Your explanation above was not useful and all the blabber about holiness I coul have done without.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Within this context I see space/ time as an illusionary facet of the universe but not really existing. Existence in it's pure form would be timeless.

And therefore the future is static. Free will cannot exist. Free will is an 'illusionary facet of the universe'.
So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Originally posted by Agerg
suppose it is known by your God that I will do X (or to keep KM happy, that I did X from its perspective)
Now suppose at the correct time to do X I instead do Y. Does this seem totally fine and dandy given your God's knowledge of me doing X is infallible?

That is totally ilogical and convoluted thinking.

If you are given a choice of A or B, and after some thought you choose B. God viewing from outside of time sees your "choice" and knows what it will be.

How is that determinism? Or indeed how is it less convincing than what you are proposing, which correct me if I'm wrong is:

God looks and sees your choice and therefore knows what your choice was, and therefore is controlling you to make that choice.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And therefore the future is static. Free will cannot exist. Free will is an 'illusionary facet of the universe'.
So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

What do you mean by the term static?

What do you mean by the (suspiciously Newtonian sounding) term "the future"?

Originally posted by Agerg
I don't care if your god has eyes, or whether it has eyes in its arse.

I care that your reasoning is contradictory and that this is because you have an incoherent formulation of your gods existence. Your explanation above was not useful and all the blabber about holiness I coul have done without.

Ok , but you did ask. Back to earth now. Do you understand that time is relative and not Newtonian?

For example , do you understand that something can be said to have happened but also not happened and for both to be true (depending on your position in time)?

Originally posted by divegeester
That is totally ilogical and convoluted thinking.

If you are given a choice of A or B, and after some thought you choose B. God viewing from outside of time sees your "choice" and knows what it will be.

How is that determinism? Or indeed how is it less convincing than what you are proposing, which correct me if I'm wrong is:

God looks and ...[text shortened]... d therefore knows what your choice was, and therefore is controlling you to make that choice.

You make the same mistake as KM in that you do not consider the state of and therefore implications of your gods outside of our time existence.
You're trying to make your argument work by handwaving.

The entire proposition is illogcal...magic solutions won't cut it.

If your god created the universe and exists outside of our timeline, then by omniscience he can see the entirety of our timeline at the moment of creation.
He in effect sees what we have done at the instant he created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.

Originally posted by Agerg
You make the same mistake as KM in that you do not consider the state of and therefore implications of your gods outside of our time existence.
You're trying to make your argument work by handwaving.

The entire proposition is illogcal...magic solutions won't cut it.

If your god created the universe and exists outside of our timeline, then by omniscience ...[text shortened]... t he created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.

Where is the handwaving or magic in what I said?

Originally posted by divegeester
Where is the handwaving or magic in what I said?

"If you are given a choice of A or B, and after some thought you choose B. God viewing from outside of time sees your "choice" and knows what it will be."
By asserting this without actually going into the details. (It is the details that kill your argument)

Did you intend to respond to the rest of my post?

Originally posted by Agerg
"If you are given a choice of A or B, and after some thought you choose B. God viewing from outside of time sees your "choice" and knows what it will be."
By asserting this without actually going into the details. (It is the details that kill your argument)

Did you intend to respond to the rest of my post?

I don't understand what you mean, what details?

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't understand what you mean, what details?

and thats your problem...and I'll be repeating these details for you over and over again unless I stop.

Your argument relies on magic because you aren't seriously considering the implications of what you hold to be true

Originally posted by Agerg
and thats your problem...and I'll be repeating these details for you over and over again unless I stop.

Your argument relies on magic because you aren't seriously considering the implications of what you hold to be true

Then please stop cos you're making no sense!

Originally posted by divegeester
Then please stop cos you're making no sense!

As I said to KM earlier it is most efficient to counter questions such as:
"how do you know God doesn't exist" with "you wouldn't understand"; for though this is simple to me, it incomprehensible to you.

I wish I had because this has been a waste of time.

I'll simply copy and paste what you ignored earlier:

If your god created the universe and exists outside of our timeline, then by omniscience he can see the entirety of our timeline at the moment of creation.
He in effect sees what we have done at the instant he created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.

Originally posted by Agerg
As I said to KM earlier it is most efficient to counter questions such as:
"how do you know God doesn't exist" with "you wouldn't understand"; for though this is simple to me, it incomprehensible to you.

I wish I had because this has been a waste of time.

I'll simply copy and paste what you ignored earlier:

If your god created the universe and exists ...[text shortened]... created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.

I've listened to understand what you are saying, but it doesn't follow logically for me.

Originally posted by divegeester
I've listened to understand what you are saying, but it doesn't follow logically for me.

I have asked the same question of KM and he dodges it with fluff.
When you say god exist outside of time...what do you mean?
Do you put him in a different timeline independent of ours? Do you otherwise argue time doesn't apply to God and reduce his existence to a singularity? or something else???
What is your notion of God's temporal existence?

Originally posted by Agerg
I have asked the same question of KM and he dodges it with fluff.
When you say god exist outside of time...what do you mean?
Do you put him in a different timeline independent of ours? Do you otherwise argue time doesn't apply to God and reduce his existence to a singularity? or something else???
What is your notion of God's temporal existence?

I believe God is not constrained by time as we are, and therefore knows the end at the beginning and all points in between. His knowledge of all possible event does not determine their specific outcomes.