Holy spirit

Originally posted by divegeester
I believe God is not constrained by time as we are, and therefore knows the end at the beginning and all points in between. His knowledge of all possible event does not determine their specific outcomes.

Again...you're dodging the question with fluff. What do you mean when you say he is not constrained by time as we are?
Different timeline? no timeline at all? constrained to ours but can blip about at will???

Originally posted by Agerg
Again...you're dodging the question with fluff. What do you mean when you say he is not constrained by time as we are?

Are you looking for a scientific explanation?

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you looking for a scientific explanation?

I'm just looking for something with more rigour than "he's timeless", "he exists outside of time" etc...If you want to consider this scientific then so be it.

I suspect you don't actually consider *how* your god is timeless or not constrained by time, and just say it because it is an easy tap out.

Originally posted by Agerg
As I said to KM earlier it is most efficient to counter questions such as:
"how do you know God doesn't exist" with "you wouldn't understand"; for though this is simple to me, it incomprehensible to you.

I wish I had because this has been a waste of time.

I'll simply copy and paste what you ignored earlier:

If your god created the universe and exists ...[text shortened]... created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.

If your god created the universe and exists outside of our timeline, then by omniscience he can see the entirety of our timeline at the moment of creation.
He in effect sees what we have done at the instant he created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.
-------agerg-------------------------------------------

I don't believe this. I don't think God can see a timeline that doesn't exist. What you are suggesting is that God can see our timeline before our timeline actually exists. But God cannot see you choosing something in 2007 unless you are actually choosing something in 2007. You seem to think that God knows what you will do in 2007 even before 2007 exists , which is not technically true.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If your god created the universe and exists outside of our timeline, then by omniscience he can see the entirety of our timeline at the moment of creation.
He in effect sees what we have done at the instant he created our universe, and so determines what we have done by the very act of creating it.
-------agerg--------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... t God knows what you will do in 2007 even before 2007 exists , which is not technically true.

So again KM, what state of temporal existence applies to your god such that it has always seen what I have done yet there exists a point at or after creation of the universe for which my timeline does not exist?

Originally posted by Agerg
So again KM, what state of temporal existence applies to your god such that it has always seen what I have done yet there exists a point at or after creation of the universe for which my timeline does not exist?

I don't even know if the term after or at apply here. What I do know is that the universe is likely to be (and seems like ) a contained , space/ time event of some sort for which we use the word "time" to describe events within it.

If there really is a God who created this then it's not likely that he would be contained within it , anymore than a programmer is likely to be contained within his own program.

All i can say is that if God does not create you then he cannot know your choices. This much seems logical.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't even know if the term after or at apply here. What I do know is that the universe is likely to be (and seems like ) a contained , space/ time event of some sort for which we use the word "time" to describe events within it.

If there really is a God who created this then it's not likely that he would be contained within it , anymore than a p ...[text shortened]... s that if God does not create you then he cannot know your choices. This much seems logical.

You keep drawing the inference that I constrain your god to our timeline...I don't see what leads you to this conclusion.
Again you are still dodging the issue, and I say it is very important for if you tie yourself down to a specific formulation of your god's temporal existence (whatever it may be) we can help you identify your errors.

Do all events occur for your god simulataneously (from its perspective) or do they not occur simultaneously...the latter being reducable to some concept of time (though perhaps independent of ours)

Originally posted by Agerg
By Mark 3:29 it is claimed that one who blasphemes against the holy spirit is eternally screwed.

[b]The holy spirit is a muppet and can go kiss my arse!

ooops! I'm sorry!...please Christians, tell me how to become saved[/b]

I think you know how to become saved. As far as blaspheme against the holy spirit, that's your business.😏

Originally posted by Agerg
You keep drawing the inference that I constrain your god to our timeline...I don't see what leads you to this conclusion.
Again you are still dodging the issue, and I say it is very important for if you tie yourself down to a specific formulation of your god's temporal existence (whatever it may be) we can help you identify your errors.

Do all events occur ...[text shortened]... usly...the latter being reducable to some concept of time (though perhaps independent of ours)

Your intial contention was that there was an obvious contradiction between omniscience and free will. This implies that you must have some conception of what God's omniscience must be like (otherwise you could not comment on it) .

What I am trying to explore with you is this. My guess is that your conception is based on some newtonian assumptions about time that don't allow for the apparent paradoxes that relativity does.

Whatever my conception of God's eternity is not as relevant as the false assumptions I feel you must have made. In any case , you are asking questions that it's near impossible to answer. My point regarding God is that he is unlikely to exist within the sapce/time dimension as we know it. Therefore , it's logical to assume some paradoxes along the way.

My actual belief about this is that it does contain what seems like for us an apparent paradox. I believe that in reality God doesn't know what we will do unless we actually do it. We have to do it in order for him to know it. The paradox occurs when we consider that God's time reference to us means he can see what we will do unrestrained by our timeline. This makes us think he can see what we will do before we do it. But actually it's both , we have both NOT done it yet (allowing for free will) but also HAVE done it ( allowing for omniscience).

This seems a silly thing to say but if you look into relativity and time dilation you will see that such apparent time contradictions are theoretically possible and have experiemental proof. This for me provides a reasonable case to question the catagorical nature of your claims. If time is relative it's impossible to say "when" something has happened, We can only say when it's happened for us.

This means that our future actions may have happened for God but also not happened for us - and neither one is more true than the other! Wierd Eh?

Now I'm not suggesting that God is like some interstellar space traveller (see other thread " einstein" ) , but if he's eternal and exists prior to space/ time it's reasonable to assume that all kinds of "apparent" paradoxes are possible , like the one between free will and his omniscience.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your intial contention was that there was an obvious contradiction between omniscience and free will. This implies that you must have some conception of what God's omniscience must be like (otherwise you could not comment on it) .

What I am trying to explore with you is this. My guess is that your conception is based on some newtonian assumptions a paradoxes are possible , like the one between free will and his omniscience.

Can't be bothered with this anymore...You do not see that the problems are rooted in your (lack of) conception of your god's 'time' and you are of the opinion that this is not important 😕🙄.

You claim a timeless god though you haven't got the foggiest idea what this means. You then claim some BS about my notion of your god's time where I am infact accomodating your BS views about what your God has always *seen* and trying to lead you (slowly) to the contradiction. You annoy me.
I'll restate my point: I know your god does not exist

Originally posted by Agerg
Can't be bothered with this anymore...You do not see that the problems are rooted in your (lack of) conception of your god's 'time' and you are of the opinion that this is not important 😕🙄.

You claim a timeless god though you haven't got the foggiest idea what this means. You then claim some BS about my notion of your god's time where I am infact accomoda ...[text shortened]... conradiction. You annoy me.
I'll restate my point: [b]I know your god does not exist[/b]

I think we are at a misunderstanding. You seem to think that the name of the game is to put my conception of God under the spotlight whilst at the same time you seem to feel no obligation to be cross examined yourself.

The problem is that this would lead to a one way debate and would not be fair. Maybe if you had said that you were only interested in one thing from the start it would have been easier.

You are asking a lot of questions that are impossible to answer and beyond my knowledge. God may or may not have His own timeline or it may be very different. You know I will be unable to offer a rigorous answer to many of your queries - but what is your point?

I am quite willing to go as far as I can with it , would you be prepared to examine your own newtonian assumptions of time?

(BTW - You sound quite angry and my feeling is that you walked into this debate with a chip on your shoulder or something. It's always a recipe for disaster. )

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think we are at a misunderstanding. You seem to think that the name of the game is to put my conception of God under the spotlight whilst at the same time you seem to feel no obligation to be cross examined yourself.

The problem is that this would lead to a one way debate and would not be fair. Maybe if you had said that you were only interested ...[text shortened]... nto this debate with a chip on your shoulder or something. It's always a recipe for disaster. )

again "*my* newtonian assumption of time"!!! 😠
When debunking nonsense KM it is often best to assume the position of your opponent is true, and then demonstrate absurdity.

You asserted earlier that your God does not know the entire timeline at the moment he created the universe, you also assert he has always known what I did.
Do you not see that your concept of your God's existence is broken??? at all times he knows what I have done yet there exists a point when he doesn't know what I have done because at that point I didn't exist??? 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
again "*my* newtonian assumption of time"!!! 😠
When debunking nonsense KM it is often best to assume the position of your opponent is true, and then demonstrate absurdity.

You asserted earlier that your God does not know the entire timeline at the moment he created the universe, you also assert he has always known what I did.
Do you not see that your co ...[text shortened]... ts a point when he doesn't know what I have done because at that point I didn't exist??? 😕

I don't see it as "broken". I think that God's omniscience is limited by the contraints of creating a space/time universe. (Just like his omnipotence is limited by his commitment to free will )

If God creates a universe like ours with you in it then it's logical to assume that there is some point where he does not know what you will do because you don't exist as such. In this sense his omniscience is not complete because even an omniscient God cannot defy pure logic. He cannot know of an event that does not ever happen. (just like he can't create a rock so big that he can't lift it)

I would say that God is as omniscient as he could possibly be within the constraints of logic. What absurdity did you intend to show in all of this? That God cannot know something if it doesn't occur? Tell me you have something better than this.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't see it as "broken". I think that God's omniscience is limited by the contraints of creating a space/time universe. (Just like his omnipotence is limited by his commitment to free will )

If God creates a universe like ours with you in it then it's logical to assume that there is some point where he does not know what you will do because you cannot know something if it doesn't occur? Tell me you have something better than this.

"I don't see it as "broken""
rubbish!!!..your God's existence contradicts itself if we accept your reasoning.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't see it as "broken". I think that God's omniscience is limited by the contraints of creating a space/time universe. (Just like his omnipotence is limited by his commitment to free will )

If God creates a universe like ours with you in it then it's logical to assume that there is some point where he does not know what you will do because you cannot know something if it doesn't occur? Tell me you have something better than this.

"...an omniscient God cannot defy pure logic..."
bo||ox!...your God can make all even numbers prime cos he can do ENNYHIN!!! 🙄