Spirituality
14 Feb 09
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergFake - typo.
because you seemed to be demonstrating little more than hostility and so I changed my mind about giving a sensible response.
What exactly is a flake???
I'm not a hostile poster as you will see in my other posts in this forum generally. But as you yourself said to KM... "you annoy me".
22 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterHe was annoying me by placing upon me a position that I never championed, ie: I was capable of understanding nothing other and binding all my arguments to Newtonian time, also he was evading *difficult* questions...at this moment I am not as annoyed as I was yesterday.
Fake - typo.
I'm not a hostile poster as you will see in my other posts in this forum generally. But as you yourself said to KM... "you annoy me".
I'm not sure what you mean by fake, sock puppet? closet theist? other?
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergOk then...
He was annoying me by placing upon me a position that I never championed, ie: I was capable of understanding nothing other and binding all my arguments to Newtonian time, also he was evading *difficult* questions...at this moment I am not as annoyed as I was yesterday.
I'm not sure what you mean by fake, sock puppet? closet theist? other?
Are you a previous theist, believer or whatever; who has some baggage or history, or some personal axe to grind against god or how you have been treated by people professing to represent god?
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by divegeesterNo, I've never been a theist (unless the weak notion of "God" introduced to me at an impressionable age and praying when told to pray as a primary school kid counts as having once been a theist) but I strongly dislike organised religion. I add that I am atheistic with respect to the gods I have heard defined so far and ignostic about those which remain undefined.
Ok then...
Are you a previous theist, believer or whatever; who has some baggage or history, or some personal axe to grind against god or how you have been treated by people professing to represent god?
With respect to my OP it probably wasn't the most accurate way to explore the implications of denying the holy spirit and the questions it raises about the character of "God"...not much I can do about it now though.
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergAt that specific instance from your god's perspective, that I have done X is a done deal, from my perspective it must then also be a done deal. The problem being that I haven't decided to do X yet!
KM, you are forming a two way correspondence between
a) your god's perspective where I have done X
b) my perspective where I have yet to do X
At that specific instance from your god's perspective, that I have done X is a done deal, from my perspective it must then also be a done deal. The problem being that I haven't decided to do X yet!
---------agerg---------------
But you will and are doing X in some future time. You will decide to do X. God knows that , despite being free to do Y , you will choose X. The fact that you will choose X does not mean that you never ever could have chosen Y - it just means that you will choose X.
I know that Hitler will invade poland. If I went back in time I would know that Hitler will invade but also has invaded poland. The invasion of poland says nothing about whether finland was possibly a real option. All I know is that Poland was invaded.
The fact that I know this will happen does not prove that it was the only thing that could have happened.
22 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergI was a brought up in a christian houshold as a youngster but a confimed athiest until 30ish. Although I have what I would say is a solid faith, I struggle constantly with the modern denominational representations of organised religion and do not attend "church" because of challenges I had when attending many years ago.
No, I've never been a theist (unless the weak notion of "God" introduced to me at an impressionable age and praying when told to pray as a primary school kid counts as having once been a theist) but I strongly dislike organised religion. I add that I am atheistic with respect to the gods I have heard defined so far and ignostic about those which remain undefin ...[text shortened]... questions it raises about the character of "God"...not much I can do about it now though.
22 Feb 09
1 edit
Your Hitler analogy fails.
You are working on the principle that there is some sort of homogeneity between the notion of you (an non-infallible entity who exists after Hitler died) looking at what a dead person did and an infallible god who always existed from my perspective such that he can witness an event happening (from his perspective) on my timeline where at this point from your God's perspective I actually exist to decide whether I shall or shall not do otherwise.
There isn't
If I will choose X (as it was seen by your God) then I cannot choose Y. Furthermore since I haven't done X yet I have no choice other than to do what your God has seen me do. It really is that simple! Your model is double-think.
22 Feb 09
5 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterI have to accept you are telling the truth about being an atheist as I have no reason to assume otherwise. I simply don't know how a person can reject that position for any reason other than the warm and fuzzies and supposed assurance that your sentience will live on once your brain ceases to function.
I was a brought up in a christian houshold as a youngster but a confimed athiest until 30ish. Although I have what I would say is a solid faith, I struggle constantly with the modern denominational representations of organised religion and do not attend "church" because of challenges I had when attending many years ago.
The most devastating moment of my life occured on April 14 2007 when my dad died. 4 months later was the second when my gran died. Much as I'd love to see them again I must be grateful for the profound and positive influence they had on my life whilst they were alive and deal with the fact that they are gone, permanently...as I will be when I too die. My mindset will not allow me to partake in the cognitive dissonance required to accept the proposition: your christian god (or anyone else's) exists
The same is true (with respect to death that is) for bluebottles, dogs, goldfish, etc...
23 Feb 09
Originally posted by AgergI am being truthfull.
I have to accept you are telling the truth about being an atheist as I have no reason to assume otherwise. I simply don't know how a person can reject that position for any reason other than the warm and fuzzies and supposed assurance that your sentience will live on once your brain ceases to function.
The most devastating moment of my life occured on April ...[text shortened]... ists
The same is true (with respect to death that is) for bluebottles, dogs, goldfish, etc...
2 losses in 4 months must have been tough, I'm sorry to hear about that. I have little experience of what that must be like.
I can't explain my faith in a thread. But faith is linked to hope, and hope is linked to charity. My life is better for it. For me God is goodness, mercy and peace.
23 Feb 09
3 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterWith a few exceptions (and I care not to justify this) I would not hope that sort of trauma will be experienced by anyone (though it will for some and to a worse extent)
I am being truthfull.
2 losses in 4 months must have been tough, I'm sorry to hear about that. I have little experience of what that must be like.
I can't explain my faith in a thread. But faith is linked to hope, and hope is linked to charity. My life is better for it. For me God is goodness, mercy and peace.
I think "hope" is the important word there and I would argue it is misplaced. But that is an opinion I prefer to make more credible through debating tangible God related concepts than just beating you over the head with it.
With respect to living a better life, I cannot draw a useful picture here because I live what I believe is a good life as an atheist. (What I would gain in false hope, I imagine I would lose in objectivity and rationality in other areas)
23 Feb 09
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergMy meaning was that my life is better off because of my faith, not that I live a better (more good) life; if you see the distinction. I am better off, more blessed because God is in my life than I was without him. Albeit a personal viewpoint. I never want to lose objectivity and rationality, although I would undersand why an athest would say I had. There is a cost in all decisions we make though.
I think "hope" is the important word there and I would argue it is misplaced. But that is an opinion I prefer to make more credible through debating tangible God related concepts than just beating you over the head with it.
With respect to living a better life, I cannot draw a useful picture here because I live what I believe is a good life as an atheist. ( ...[text shortened]... ould gain in false hope, I imagine I would lose in objectivity and rationality in other areas)
My reference linking faith through hope to charity is from 1 Cor 13 as you may be aware. Charity is an act motivated by hope enpowered by faith. I guess that's as generic as it gets in terms of explainations of faith. That is not to say charity cannot be motivated by other means of course. But the input of faith n christianity without the output of charity, is dead.