If there is no God, how do we combat nihilism?

Originally posted by Ragnorak
Some people get their meaning of life actually through life.

If I try to live my life well, being respectful and kind to others around me, so as to enrich their lives, then I believe my life has meaning, godless or not.

If I live as a complete a hole my hole life, making people's lives around me a nightmare, I don't believe I have more meaning in my l ...[text shortened]... while I can actually make a difference to this real, verifiable world of here and now.

D

You are missing my point! It isn't that your 'meaning' is better
or worse than mine here, I'll just say for our discussion yours
is better, why it doesn't matter. Why doesn't it matter, because
end the end, all things turn to naught, period end of discussion.

Only in life does anything matter, nothing matters in nothing. All
roads lead to nothing according to some, therefore all meaning
goes away after this life is over. You could have been a king,
a wise man, a fool they are all the same in the end, you could
have lived in a castle, or a grass shack, all roads go to the same
end, it doesn't matter.

You believe your foundation for life is better than mine, because
you think your views on why I do things are done out of seeking a
reward. I never said I was doing anything out of a desire for a
reward, where did you get that? Did I say that, or are you just saying
it because you think everyone who believes in God only tries to do
go for those reasons?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are missing my point! It isn't that your 'meaning' is better
or worse than mine here, I'll just say for our discussion yours
is better, why it doesn't matter. Why doesn't it matter, because
end the end, all things turn to naught, period end of discussion.

Only in life does anything matter, nothing matters in nothing. All
roads lead to nothing acc use you think everyone who believes in God only tries to do
go for those reasons?
Kelly

You're right, I don't get your point.

Is it that if there is no afterlife, then life has no meaning, as in the end of the day, whether you were a beggar or a king, life is over and meaning doesn't exist?

You're saying that any legacy left behind is meaningless once you die? So, if I were a king, there could be 2 scenarios. I was a good and noble king or I was a horrendously cruel king who worked my peasants to the bone for peanuts. Are you saying that when I die, my whole life suddenly becomes meaningless, because there is no afterlife? Surely, even after my death, the way I ruled my kingdom when I was alive is still relevant to the peasants, ie: my life still has meaning to the people who are still alive.

D

[EDIT] I made the reward comment because it seemed you were implying that life has no meaning if there is no afterlife when you made this comment..."After all, the fool and the wise both die, if there is nothing afterwards they equally become nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to them, both are now nothing once dead."

Originally posted by Ragnorak
You're right, I don't get your point.

Is it that if there is no afterlife, then life has no meaning, as in the end of the day, whether you were a beggar or a king, life is over and meaning doesn't exist?

You're saying that any legacy left behind is meaningless once you die? So, if I were a king, there could be 2 scenarios. I was a good and noble kin ...[text shortened]... nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to them, both are now nothing once dead."

I don't get his point either, I've asked several times for clarification of it. I've attempted to give my interpretation of his point and have been told I am getting it wrong. I'm starting to wonder if there is a point at all.

Originally posted by Starrman
I'm starting to wonder if there is a point at all.

That makes three of us. If my life can be meaningful for me, in this life, then what is the problem with my being merely temporary? If the Sun went supernova tomorrow, and we were all destroyed, my life wouldn't have been any less meaningful for me, while I was living it. If Kelly's claim is merely that my life will not be meaningful in some Eternal sense, then O.K. But why on Earth should I care about whether my life is meaningful in that sense, since it has no bearing on what I take to be the important aspects of my life? The reason we tend to be worried about issues concerning life's meaning is because we take it to have implications for how we ought to be and live. If the meaning I ascribe to my own life, by virtue of what I take to be valuable and the choices I make, is sufficient for providing guidance concerning how I ought to be and live, then why should I care about some super-special sort of meanining that requires my immortality?

Originally posted by bbarr
That makes three of us. If my life can be meaningful for me, in this life, then what is the problem with my being merely temporary? If the Sun went supernova tomorrow, and we were all destroyed, my life wouldn't have been any less meaningful for me, while I was living it. If Kelly's claim is merely that my life will not be meaningful in some Eternal sense, en why should I care about some super-special sort of meanining that requires my immortality?

Yes, eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.
You are seeing it, though not giving it much thought.

My point, is that for you, things in your life are meaningful, for
the next guy his is meaningful. That being said, it does not matter
what the next guy likes, be it creating pain in little children, burning
down homes, feeding the poor, teaching those who cannot to read,
and so on. At the end of the day, all lives are equally void.

Values temporary, meaning temporary, and both vainity for that
matter. Even to be well thought of after one is gone, is vaniety
in the here and now, since it would not carry into anything after one
is gone. What you call important aspects is just personal taste
that carry on only for a little while. Desire carries as much weight in
the temporary than 'right and wrong', actually for some even more
weight, because the here and now is all that matters.

Nothing, voids all meaning except the temporary which is only found
now; however, if life does indeed carry on those things that do
remain would matter a great deal no matter if they are held in high
regard or not.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.
You are seeing it, though not giving it much thought.

My point, is that for you, things in your life are meaningful, for
the next guy his is meaningful. That being said, it does not matter
what the next guy likes, be it creating pain in little children, burning
down homes, feeding the poor, teaching do
remain would matter a great deal no matter if they are held in high
regard or not.
Kelly

Nothing in my post entails either hedonism or moral relativism. Being an existentialist about meaning doesn't commit one to either of those theses. This is one of the many points you keep missing. The reason you keep making this mistake is because you think that unless there is some ultimate, eternal authority figure that dictates right and wrong, there will be no moral constraints on what we ought to value. But that is just a fantasy on your part, and results from your deep and abiding ignorance of secular moral theory.

Originally posted by bbarr
Nothing in my post entails either hedonism or moral relativism. Being an existentialist about meaning doesn't commit one to either of those theses. This is one of the many points you keep missing. The reason you keep making this mistake is because you think that unless there is some ultimate, eternal authority figure that dictates right and wrong, there wil ...[text shortened]... fantasy on your part, and results from your deep and abiding ignorance of secular moral theory.

See this is the point I've been making and yet every time I do, Kelly comes back with either: a) I didn't say anything about god in this, or b) you're missing my piont (more reiteration of his previous point ensues).

Originally posted by bbarr
Nothing in my post entails either hedonism or moral relativism. Being an existentialist about meaning doesn't commit one to either of those theses. This is one of the many points you keep missing. The reason you keep making this mistake is because you think that unless there is some ultimate, eternal authority figure that dictates right and wrong, there wil ...[text shortened]... fantasy on your part, and results from your deep and abiding ignorance of secular moral theory.

No, I don't care what you value or do not value. The fact you have
things in your life that you do value, and why you value them are
as important to you as the next guy. You can have moral constraints
and not believe in an after life, I'm not denying that. What I am
sayinging is so what? To have them or not have them does not change
anything in the end, it is all the same, that is what a great void of
nothing does.

A God or gods setting up rules that last forever, well, that would
change what? I'm not even bringing up an ultimate authority, you
and those that have entered into this discussion keep doing that.

I'm simply pointing out that, that all meaning we place on all things
are vaniety here and now if there is nothing after this life. It makes
us feel good, so we accept it, it makes us feel bad, so we accept it.
It does not matter why we think what we do, if nothing is what is to
become of it all, than all roads lead to nothing and all that we think
matters will too.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I don't care what you value or do not value. The fact you have
things in your life that you do value, and why you value them are
as important to you as the next guy. You can have moral constraints
and not believe in an after life, I'm not denying that. What I am
sayinging is so what? To have them or not have them does not change
anything in the end ...[text shortened]... me of it all, than all roads lead to nothing and all that we think
matters will too.
Kelly

Yes. I agree.


Next!

Originally posted by Starrman
See this is the point I've been making and yet every time I do, Kelly comes back with either: a) I didn't say anything about god in this, or b) you're missing my piont (more reiteration of his previous point ensues).

When debating true-believers, you have to know when to cut and run. Remember, the point is not to convince the true-believer, or even to get him to understand your point (you're not a miracle worker). Rather, the point is to convince reasonably intelligent third-party readers that the true-believer is full of it. Mission accomplished.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I don't care what you value or do not value. The fact you have
things in your life that you do value, and why you value them are
as important to you as the next guy. You can have moral constraints
and not believe in an after life, I'm not denying that. What I am
sayinging is so what? To have them or not have them does not change
anything in the end ...[text shortened]... me of it all, than all roads lead to nothing and all that we think
matters will too.
Kelly

I'm not trying to be dense, but I still don't understand what you are saying. You are either saying that our actions during this life are meaningless if they lack some form of external justification derived from eschatological considerations, which is patently false; or you are saying that there is no ultimate purpose to life if there is no ultimate purpose to life, which is some really profound insight. If your point is the latter, you won't need to twist my arm to make me agree with your tautology.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I'm not trying to be dense, but I still don't understand what you are saying. You are either saying that our actions during this life are meaningless if they lack some form of external justification derived from eschatological considerations, which is patently false; or you are saying that there is no ultimate purpose to life if there is no ultimate purp ...[text shortened]... our point is the latter, you won't need to twist my arm to make me agree with your tautology.

Get thee to work on the Plantinga thread!

Originally posted by bbarr
Get thee to work on the Plantinga thread!

Alright, alright. Maybe this weekend, during the comparatively sober hours.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Alright, alright. Maybe this weekend, during the sober hours.

You, as a graduate student, should know that every sober hour is a personal failure. Write through the haze...

Originally posted by bbarr
You, as a graduate student, should know that every sober hour is a personal failure. Write through the haze...

I can't really argue with that. Edited accordingly.