05 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by David CThat was not a suggestion that I wear leather (a la Pat Boone), or in any other way rebel with a cause. But I think you would find in examining my life, that I am a far cry from the stereotypical church-going religious guy.
um, yeah...you're a regular leather-clad bad boy in the Army of the Lord.
My life is not ruled by rules of "don't touch, don't taste, don't even look at that," typical of those whose emphasis is the physical. Not that it matters, of course.
Edit: Besides, I find that leather chaffs far too much for my, uh, private taste.
06 Mar 06
2 edits
Originally posted by StarrmanIf your playing chess, and you set yourself up to win the queen or a
You're talking from 'when it's all said and done' as a contextual viewpoint. Until we get there, such a stance is counter-intuitive. Whilst we are still alive, there is a very much more worthy viewpoint, that of 'while we're saying and doing it'. You keep echoing the two people who live their lives differently, one for good, one for evil and that they ma is full of worth, whether death comes or not and whether there is an afterlife or not.
rook, and you see that no matter which you take you lose by mate
in two moves, does it matter which one you take?
Death, doesn't make anything immaterial, nothing after death does.
I'm not asking for you help, you don't have to worry about my views
on 'nothing' changing my life. I do believe in eternal life, where all
of the things done and said here matter, not the things we aquire
along the way. In my opinion, your views on what occurs after death
are very scary if adopted by large numbers. The restraits are off and
only their desires in the here in now will matter, they may not have
the "good intent" you seem to have, and how it plays out will be
quite different for them and those they touch in this life.
Kelly
06 Mar 06
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat bothers me in your views is the assumption that all like minded people - Christians - will have this lovely, airy fairy view of the world, because of course, when they die, they get to go to heaven. Where are all these people?
If your playing chess, and you set yourself up to win the queen or a
rook, and you see that no matter which you take you lose by mate
in two moves, does it matter which one you take?
Death, doesn't make anything immaterial, nothing after death does.
I'm not asking for you help, you don't have to worry about my views
on 'nothing' changing my life. I ...[text shortened]... it plays out will be
quite different for them and those they touch in this life.
Kelly
My experience with Christians is that, like everyone else, some are nice and kind, and some are racists, and some are homophobes, and some are child molesters, and some beat up their wives, and .... well, you get the idea. A belief in the afterlife ain't going to make you any better than anyone else.
And, then there's the suicide bombers that we hear so much about nowadays. They believe in the afterlife - it's their source of income for their muderous acts.
This sounds like a nice warm fuzzy belief ...
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by amannionAgreed; a belief in an afterlife makes no statement about how you live your life here. In fact, if anything it excuses your deeds here in this life as you may repent before death and be assured of paradise thereafter. Those of us that do not believe in an afterlife are accountable for our actions here and now. If we fail, there is no redemption.
What bothers me in your views is the assumption that all like minded people - Christians - will have this lovely, airy fairy view of the world, because of course, when they die, they get to go to heaven. Where are all these people?
My experience with Christians is that, like everyone else, some are nice and kind, and some are racists, and some are homophob ...[text shortened]... heir source of income for their muderous acts.
This sounds like a nice warm fuzzy belief ...
I feel that the notion of an afterlife is as dangerous and misinterpretable as your view on my lack of one, Kelly. If seriously large numbers took it to heart, do ou really think all of them would live good lives? Or would a large number of them carry on being bad people, as they are naturally inclined to do because of their psychological makeup, and then repent close to death?
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by KellyJayCan you provide any evidence that athiests or those who do not believe in an afterlife are any less "restrained" or full of "good intent" than those who do.
In my opinion, your views on what occurs after death
are very scary if adopted by large numbers. The restraits are off and
only their desires in the here in now will matter, they may not have
the "good intent" you seem to have, and how it plays out will be
quite different for them and those they touch in this life.
Kelly
And yes these beliefs have already been adopted by large numbers so its time for you to get scared.
Those of us who dont believe in an afterlife get even more scared of people who do because some of them do things without a care for this world or the people here secure in thier knowledge that they are already destined for heaven or hell and nothing else matters to them.
Many harmfull attitudes in society are actually due to a belief in the afterlife.
07 Mar 06
I think the point that you guys are all missing, is that KJ is asking what possible good is it to live any kind of life, without some meaning to this one. Additionally, how is 'good' or 'meaning' defined, i.e., why is helping others preferred to ruling others mercilessly? Why is it not 'good' to Atilla-the-Hun everyone, thus leaving a legacy of cunning and ruthlessness to those who come behind?
Who cares about who comes behind, once good and meaning are removed?
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by KellyJaySome people get their meaning of life actually through life.
Tell me, if there is no after life, what does meaning, mean?
After all, the fool and the wise both die, if there is nothing afterwards
they equally become nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to
them, both are now nothing once dead. If this life is all there is, than
there is no meaning; it is just taste for the moment, and the moment
is g ...[text shortened]... on
to nothing, where is the meaning in nothingness if this brief life
is all there is?
Kelly
If I try to live my life well, being respectful and kind to others around me, so as to enrich their lives, then I believe my life has meaning, godless or not.
If I live as a complete a hole my hole life, making people's lives around me a nightmare, I don't believe I have more meaning in my life just because I rely on the chance that I'm going to be rewarded in the afterlife.
Surely, your moral foundations are weaker than mine (despite the presence of a god in your life) if you do good deeds for the selfish reasons of achieving eternal life, while I do my good deeds because they make my life and the life of others better. While we're still alive, and while I can actually make a difference to this real, verifiable world of here and now.
D
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWe're not missing the point. We're merely tiring from the fact that people who think like him are labouring under the false impression that god is the measuring stick for life and that without him (and therefore an afterlife) this life is meaningless.
I think the point that you guys are all missing, is that KJ is asking what possible good is it to live any kind of life, without some meaning to this one. Additionally, how is 'good' or 'meaning' defined, i.e., why is helping others preferred to ruling others mercilessly? Why is it not 'good' to Atilla-the-Hun everyone, thus leaving a legacy of cunning a ...[text shortened]... ose who come behind?
Who cares about who comes behind, once good and meaning are removed?
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by amannionOriginally posted by amannion
What bothers me in your views is the assumption that all like minded people - Christians - will have this lovely, airy fairy view of the world, because of course, when they die, they get to go to heaven. Where are all these people?
My experience with Christians is that, like everyone else, some are nice and kind, and some are racists, and some are homophob ...[text shortened]... heir source of income for their muderous acts.
This sounds like a nice warm fuzzy belief ...
What bothers me in your views is the assumption that all like minded people - Christians - will have this lovely, airy fairy view of the world, because of course, when they die, they get to go to heaven. Where are all these people?
I have to ask you, where did you see me say anything about a lovely,
airy fairy view of the world with like minded Christians? My points have
been centering on what does a great nothing do to all meaning we
place on everything in this life, and you seem to draw I have been
suggesting something about me and other like minded Christians,
where did I do that?
My experience with Christians is that, like everyone else, some are nice and kind, and some are racists, and some are homophobes, and some are child molesters, and some beat up their wives, and .... well, you get the idea. A belief in the afterlife ain't going to make you any better than anyone else.
Surprise I agree with you, people are people, and people are as you
describe them, and anyone can claim to be a Christian, just as
anyone can go to church. Neither mean much by themselves, people
can go to church and that does not make them a Christian just as
going to Burger King does not make them a hamburger as someone
once said. My belief in an after life isn’t really the discussion I’m
attempting to have, I have only voiced it ever so briefly because I got
tired of getting smeared for voicing my disagreement with all life
moving into nothing after this life.
And, then there's the suicide bombers that we hear so much about nowadays. They believe in the afterlife - it's their source of income for their muderous acts.
This sounds like a nice warm fuzzy belief ...
Okay, this statement that at least is close to the topic. I agree when
we look at all the different views of life after death, you can get a
variety. A different topic, though if we were to compare all the various
life after death beliefs. I would that you tell me how you think it
matters in the end if everyone dissolves or dissipates into
nothingness after life? Is the suicide bomber better off or worse off if
they just go into nothingness? Does it matter how one lived if they just
dissolve or dissipate into nothingness, all roads lead to the same
place, what does it matter in the end? All that matters only matters in
life, if nothingness is what awaits all life, it all becomes the same no
matter what was done, all that we place value on would become vanity
in life too as it is described in scripture, since all value we place on
anything or anyone will with time end in nothingness as our lives
pass into it. All that the suicide bomber valued will be nothing to them
and all that the person who tried to live as a saint would pass into
nothing with their passing, and what remains in life will with time pass
too carrying with it all value it placed on anything.
Kelly
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadHarmful attitudes can be enforced by any belief system, those with
Can you provide any evidence that athiests or those who do not believe in an afterlife are any less "restrained" or full of "good intent" than those who do.
And yes these beliefs have already been adopted by large numbers so its time for you to get scared.
Those of us who dont believe in an afterlife get even more scared of people who do because some of ...[text shortened]... to them.
Many harmfull attitudes in society are actually due to a belief in the afterlife.
and without an after life. I'm not attempting to compare "yet" one
belief with another, I'm simply looking at the belief in 'nothing' after
life and how it voids all meaning in the end.
Beliefs in an after life can value different things, so that different
things or different actions will be valued. I have heard it said that
some belief systems in the world today do not value telling the
truth to those outside of their belief system, and do value telling
the truth only to those within their belief system, while others value
truth no matter what and believe all lies told to those inside or
outside of their own faith is still a lie and a sin. Some belief systems
believe that value of human life should only be given to those of like
faith, while others believe all live has value. Some people believe all
manner of different things, their beliefs either can rule their lives, or
they are are just things that define them with, without ever really
attempting to follow what they think is true or not.
People can act out more out of fullfilling their desires sometimes,
then they do with things that they think is right or wrong. The flaws
in beliefs don't always reveal themselves clearly because people do
this. The flaws in people seem to make all belief systems equally
flawed.
Kelly
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by StarrmanHow do you define what is good? You and I if there is nothing after
Agreed; a belief in an afterlife makes no statement about how you live your life here. In fact, if anything it excuses your deeds here in this life as you may repent before death and be assured of paradise thereafter. Those of us that do not believe in an afterlife are accountable for our actions here and now. If we fail, there is no redemption.
I f ...[text shortened]... naturally inclined to do because of their psychological makeup, and then repent close to death?
this life end up the same way, and all I cared about will be nothing
to me, and all that you cared about will be nothing to you; moreover,
all that we cared about that remained after we die will pass too at
some point. All roads lead to the same place, the only defining
point in all of this is you cared about something will alive and I cared
about something while alive, and we will be dead and all we were will
be gone.
My tastes and your tastes, my joys, your joys, all end up voided by
death. So what makes one any better than another? You can tell
me your views are better because "X", and I can tell you my views
are better because of "Y", and death takes them both and turns
them into nothing in the end.
What remains in life can and will carry value, but only in life. If life
remains than meaning will carry on, only those things that are lost
will carry with it meaning and value.
Kelly
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by StarrmanYou are not even addressing my points!
We're not missing the point. We're merely tiring from the fact that people who think like him are labouring under the false impression that god is the measuring stick for life and that without him (and therefore an afterlife) this life is meaningless.
I have not brought God into the discussion you have!
I have said that in nothing, nothing matters, only in life is there
meaning. Your measuring stick on why you think your beliefs are
better than mine come to naught at the end of your life, just as
mine would in the end of mine if nothing awaits us. You saying
your views are better than mine, because ... is simply a matter
of taste on your part, since both beliefs get us the same end
no matter what!
Kelly
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by KellyJayKelly, I have addressed the question several times, but you seem to be missing my point.
You are not even addressing my points!
I have not brought God into the discussion you have!
I have said that in nothing, nothing matters, only in life is there
meaning. Your measuring stick on why you think your beliefs are
better than mine come to naught at the end of your life, just as
mine would in the end of mine if nothing awaits us. You sayin ...[text shortened]... a matter
of taste on your part, since both beliefs get us the same end
no matter what!
Kelly
You have bought god into the discussion, whether you realise it or not. By saying that life does not matter once you are dead you are suggesting that the alternative is an afterlife. If you are not suggesting this, there is no reason for you to carry on living, you should just kill yourself. But since you are still alive, there must be a reason; an afterlife and that is granted by god.
You are still regarding the question of the worth of life from the point of death and if you continue to do this, you will never see the point, no matter how many times I explain it. The society we live in and the people wemeet, the music we listen to, the books we read, the places we visit, the tv we watch and so much more, all form our measuring stick. And it is a measuring stick the majority of people adhere to. It is counter productive to do bad all your life. Heck, even biologically it is wrong, the stress and danger you will inevitably put yourself through will cause you to live for less and probably encourage poor health in general. Just because you cannot see the measuring stick does not mean it is not there.
07 Mar 06
Originally posted by StarrmanAs I said, I have not brought God into this you have, you are trying
Kelly, I have addressed the question several times, but you seem to be missing my point.
You have bought god into the discussion, whether you realise it or not. By saying that life does not matter once you are dead you are suggesting that the alternative is an afterlife. If you are not suggesting this, there is no reason for you to carry on living, you ...[text shortened]... alth in general. Just because you cannot see the measuring stick does not mean it is not there.
to put words in my mouth. Had you not known my personal beliefs
and simply read what I have written in this discussion, would you
automatically assume you knew what I was thinking an attempting to
prove? If you are honest and I believe you are, you would have say
no, there is nothing in what I have written that said "God" except in
my replies to you.
I realize what I have been saying, and I believe you are attempting
to try and read my mind and argue with what I'm thinking not what
I'm saying. "whether you realise it or not." please, I know my own
words and my intent in saying them, you are putting words in my
mouth and debating those words you believe me to be thinking, not
the ones I'm actually using.
You have not addressed the point I have been bringing up, instead
you keep telling me how good your views within this life time are. I
say great, you have great views about life in this life time! You are
outstanding, a model of good living in your own eyes! That is as far
as it can go I'm afraid, the guy next to you whoever it is also has
views about life, and he may not care as much as you do about his
fellow man, and when it is all said and done, you both die and nothing
about either of you remains you both desolve into nothing.
So let us look at the things you both care about, if it is things, those
things may be left behind, but their worth may not be felt by anyone
else, so their worth isn't as important as it was when you were alive.
No one else cares about your things the way you did, your gone so
your things are no longer as important. Say you care about some
person, they die a little later, the person you care about now is gone,
so who you cared about is also nothing. Even if the human race goes
on it does nothing for you, it will with time forget you were ever here,
you will be as if you were never here, like your body, nothing.
This does not define what really matters it only defines that nothing
would change all things you and I value into nothing. I like you do
believe there are things that matter in life, we just disagree on how
long they will matter.
Kelly