26 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rank outsiderIn addition, the phrase 'eternal life' is clearly set up linguistically to contrast with what happens to the rest.
As an 'outside observer', nothing in what you have cited states that humans will be tortured forever.
When someone is executed in countries still barbaric enough to have the death penalty, is that deprival of life a punishment?
If so, is that punishment temporary or permanent?
If you chuck a human into a lake of fire, will they die?
Might a ...[text shortened]... tant to get this right, so if your interpretation is right, God was a pretty shoddy draughtsman.
The most natural 'opposite' to 'eternal life' is 'permanent death' which is also what the Bible almost immediately goes on to call it.
It is not natural to contrast 'eternal life' with some form of continued existence which is of a different nature.
If God had meant this, surely a phrase like 'eternal bliss' would have been better to contrast with 'eternal torment'.
You really have to contort this passage both semantically and contextually to reach this conclusion.
As well, of course, to assume that God is the most evil creature that has ever existed. Which I didn't think was the point.
26 Jul 14
Also god says in the bible that the wages sins pays is death, not some eternal burning.
Of all the sins man has made on purpose, our first parents Adam and Eve did a real number on their offspring by their sin against god. But yet god only condemned them to death with never a mention of being tormented for all of eternity in a lake of fire.
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by galveston75The way I understand it, the first death concerns only the material, whereas the second death concerns both the material and the immaterial. Of course since I have never been dead, I can only state my opinions as to what the scriptures say.
So does the second death mean being dead or is it still being alive to be tortured by this fire?
According to the scriptures, one can be dead and still be under torment forever. How that is possible, I do not know.
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by Rank outsiderWell, we are only trying to understand scripture. If the translations are correct, then the way I understand it is that the second death can not mean total annihilation of soul and spirit, because then there can not be a mind to be under torment forever.
In addition, the phrase 'eternal life' is clearly set up linguistically to contrast with what happens to the rest.
The most natural 'opposite' to 'eternal life' is 'permanent death' which is also what the Bible almost immediately goes on to call it.
It is not natural to contrast 'eternal life' with some form of continued existence which is of a d ...[text shortened]... e that God is the most evil creature that has ever existed. Which I didn't think was the point.
Of course, this is just my opinion and I do not claim to be infallible.
26 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsThanks Ron. Well it goes contrary to what the rest of the bible says about death. This scripture would go against the thought of being tormented forever.
The way I understand it, the first death concerns only the material, whereas the second death concerns both the material and the immaterial. Of course since I have never been dead, I can only state my opinions as to what the scriptures say.
According to the scriptures, one can be dead and still be under torment forever. How that is possible, I do not know.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20Living Bible (TLB)
19 For men and animals both breathe the same air, and both die. So mankind has no real advantage over the beasts; what an absurdity! 20 All go to one place—the dust from which they came and to which they must return.
So this scripture says the human body, the part that would feel the pain of being burned forever does not live on and in fact simply returns to dust.
Also this scripture would also show that one would not be consciense after death:
Ecclesiastes 9:5Living Bible (TLB)
5 For the living at least know that they will die! But the dead know nothing ; they don’t even have their memories.[a]
One has to be awake and conscience to feel and understand the pain one would be recieveing if they were indeed being tortured in a lake of fire. If one were really dead and no life functions working as the bible says many times, how would they feel pain and be aware of this?
This is why one MUST prove scripture with scripture. If you have many scriptures that agree on a subject but you have a few that seem not to agree, one should understand that those few must either be symbolic or have another meaning then those many that are clear on a subject such as death.
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by galveston75There seems to be certain times when the soul sleeps and does not know anything. However, there seems to be other times when the soul is awake and is aware of the surroundings. I presented my opinion for consideration, you are free to agree or disagree. But neither of us really know from personal experience.
Thanks Ron. Well it goes contrary to what the rest of the bible says about death. This scripture would go against the thought of being tormented forever.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20Living Bible (TLB)
19 For men and animals both breathe the same air, and both die. So mankind has no real advantage over the beasts; what an absurdity! 20 All go to one place ...[text shortened]... r be symbolic or have another meaning then those many that are clear on a subject such as death.
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYeah neither of us have died. But again the bible says what it says. The soul dies returns to the dust of the earth and knows nothing until it is resurrected if it is deserving of that from god.
There seems to be certain times when the soul sleeps and does not know anything. However, there seems to be other times when the soul is awake and is aware of the surroundings. I presented my opinion for consideration, you are free to agree or disagree. But neither of us really know from personal experience.
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by galveston75Okay, that's fine. I don't believe that our complete understanding of this is a requirement for salvation, so it does not seem very important to debate it.
Yeah neither of us have died. But again the bible says what it says. The soul dies returns to the dust of the earth and knows nothing until it is resurrected if it is deserving of that from god.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYou should read this again....
This is a metaphor speaking of the King of Tyre as if he were Satan. It is the physical that is turned to ashes. Below is an example of a metaphor about hell or the lake of fire from Christ:
[quote] For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
“Whoever cau ...[text shortened]... or the lake of fire as a place where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. [/b]
Ezek 28:12-18
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God:
"You were the seal of perfection,Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;Every precious stone was your covering:The sardius, topaz, and diamond,Beryl, onyx, and jasper,Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.The workmanship of your timbrels and pipesWas prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers;I established you;You were on the holy mountain of God;You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your tradingYou became filled with violence within,And you sinned;Therefore I cast you as a profane thingOut of the mountain of God;And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;I cast you to the ground,I laid you before kings,That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuariesBy the multitude of your iniquities,By the iniquity of your trading;Therefore I brought fire from your midst;It devoured you,And I turned you to ashes upon the earthIn the sight of all who saw you.
NKJV
Was the king of Tyre in the garden of Eden? Is Satan physical?
26 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHindsWell again what does the bible say on our knowledge of spiritual matters? God says "we MUST worship him with spirit and TRUTH" and we must have "accurate knowledge" of the things we believe and teach. If one is teaching something that is not truthful, it not only misleads those we are speaking to and that in turn puts their standing to god in doubt but ours also as we are accountable for what we teach.
Okay, that's fine. I don't believe that our complete understanding of this is a requirement for salvation, so it does not seem very important to debate it.
Yes we are always learning and don't know it all. But we can't blow these things off as non important especially if there are clear cut scriptures in the bible to prove a point. Every scripture in the bible is important.
