In Preparation for August

Originally posted by josephw
The idea here and in the thread started by Kelly Jay is to bring about a coalition of posters that are weary of the negative effects of ad hominem attacks in this forum, by any and all, and to substitute a more thoughtfully respectful and positive objectivity to these boards.

Attack the idea or thought with all the objective vehemence you can muster, but keep you hands off the poster!

Can it be that difficult?

Well the problem is that there are those here [Suzianne as a prime example] who take
any criticisms of their god and/or religion as personal and disrespectful attacks on themselves.

If people can stop taking attacks on their beliefs as attacks of them then maybe we have a ball game.

I am not optimistic that that is at all likely to happen.

Originally posted by josephw
One doesn't know they're forgiven on the basis of feelings as you presuppose.

Knowing one is forgiven is based on fact, not feelings. Facts like knowing that the sin that separates man from God was delt with by Jesus Christ on the cross.

That's not a fact. That's a made up story, otherwise known as fiction.

Originally posted by googlefudge
This is pretty much my problem with this idea.

It's pretty much exactly the same reason Suzianne got really mad at me.

Asking respect for the people, ok I get that, not everyone seems to me to deserve it, but ok.

However asking respect for the beliefs themselves...

As Agerg says, there is almost nothing we atheists can honestly say without 'd ...[text shortened]... I'm certainly not going to try to disrupt
that any.

Just don't expect me to sign up to it.

I think it is quite different bad mouthing an idea verses bad mouthing a person.
I do think some will take what I just said and will think of ways to bait another by taking
something very personal to them and using it to try and get under their skin. I also think if
you really wanted to, you could debate an idea without being insulting.

Will you?
Not you personally, but all who make the pledge remains to be seen.

Originally posted by googlefudge
That's not a fact. That's a made up story, otherwise known as fiction.

Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead is not fiction.

To you it is, but that doesn't make it fiction. The real fiction is the myth that God doesn't exist.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think it is quite different bad mouthing an idea verses bad mouthing a person.
I do think some will take what I just said and will think of ways to bait another by taking
something very personal to them and using it to try and get under their skin. I also think if
you really wanted to, you could debate an idea without being insulting.

Will you?
Not you personally, but all who make the pledge remains to be seen.

So we understand the ground rules.

If I say (as I believe) that any God that tortures people in hell for all eternity is infinitely evil, would you regard this as:

1 Hate-speech
2 Disrespectful
3 Rude

Would your view change if I added that any person who supports this doctrine is immoral?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think it is quite different bad mouthing an idea verses bad mouthing a person.
I do think some will take what I just said and will think of ways to bait another by taking
something very personal to them and using it to try and get under their skin. I also think if
you really wanted to, you could debate an idea without being insulting.

Will you?
Not you personally, but all who make the pledge remains to be seen.

I think it is quite different bad mouthing an idea verses bad mouthing a person.

I agree.

However when the idea is a core part of that persons identity, questioning that idea/belief is very often
taken, by that person, as an attack on that person.

I also think if you really wanted to, you could debate an idea without being insulting.

It depends on the idea/belief, and the person holding that idea/belief.

If someone finds any criticism of an idea insulting/disrespectful, then no it isn't possible.

It might well be possible to not ever intend to be insulting or offensive or disrespectful if you wanted.

But the problem is that how something is taken is dependent on how the listener takes it, which
is out of the speakers control. It's why free speech laws are so important, and why hate speech
laws are so tricky, because it's almost impossible to speak without offending someone somewhere.

Originally posted by josephw
Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead is not fiction.

To you it is, but that doesn't make it fiction. The real fiction is the myth that God doesn't exist.

The historical evidence as properly analysed by a qualified historian indicates that the
stories were overwhelmingly likely to be entirely fiction.

It's not a certainty, but it's highly probable.

It is a certainty [beyond any reasonable doubt] that even if a historical JC existed that that person
was not the actual son of god, and that that person did not come back from the dead.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
So we understand the ground rules.

If I say (as I believe) that any God that tortures people in hell for all eternity is infinitely evil, would you regard this as:

1 Hate-speech
2 Disrespectful
3 Rude

Would your view change if I added that any person who supports this doctrine is immoral?

"If I say (as I believe) that any God that tortures people in hell for all eternity is infinitely evil, would you regard this as:

1 Hate-speech
2 Disrespectful
3 Rude"

No. Your opinion, and it is your right to express it.

"Would your view change if I added that any person who supports this doctrine is immoral?"

Again, that would just be your opinion as long as it is stated objectively.

But when one goes the extra step during the course of the debate and calls the one that holds to a belief one disagrees with immoral, one makes themself as God judging between good and evil. Not a very objective posture to be in.

I think it is a dangerous thing to do to label immoral an individual by not separating between the act and the person. Especially in a public forum. Privately in one's own mind is one thing, but it goes to far to publicly call another immoral.

Wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by Agerg
To guarantee that [b]for all posts made in August by poster P, no one considers what was said is rude or disrespectful either to them or to their god, it would seem that P would have to be sickeningly and/or disingenuously polite ...

theist: Well the Bible says that all atheists are going to burn in hell for eternity
atheist : Well golly gosh[hi ...[text shortened]... st: Wonderful! Now what should we talk about next?
atheist: ...


No thanks ... not from me![/b]

I'm asking for ONE month on ONE forum. Would not flinging an insult on someone you've never met or even seen for 31 days really hurt that much?

Originally posted by vivify
I'm asking for ONE month on ONE forum. Would not flinging an insult on someone you've never met or even seen for 31 days really hurt that much?

I am for not just August but on a permanent basis. At least it will be for me.
FYI, to Christians, When God is insulted or maligned, I don't like it anymore than you do. Having said that, you must remember that the insult was not really directed at you, but to God Himself.
God is well capable of defending himself. Jesus is the avenger of such, and he can do a much better job than we can. And that, without sin.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I am for not just August but on a permanent basis. At least it will be for me.
FYI, to Christians, When God is insulted or maligned, I don't like it anymore than you do. Having said that, you must remember that the insult was not really directed at you, but to God Himself.
God is well capable of defending himself. Jesus is the avenger of such, and he can do a much better job than we can. And that, without sin.

I could probably manage it for August if it was pre-agreed that September was to be a month of unadulterated sarcasm.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think it is quite different bad mouthing an idea verses bad mouthing a person.
I do think some will take what I just said and will think of ways to bait another by taking
something very personal to them and using it to try and get under their skin. I also think if
you really wanted to, you could debate an idea without being insulting.

Will you?
Not you personally, but all who make the pledge remains to be seen.

I'm assuming from your continued ignoring of my posts that your intention for this initiative is to only be nice to those posters you get on with in here. That is an interesting approach to this experienent, but not exactly in line with the Christian philosophy and possibly reveals your rather partisan approach to the religion.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well the problem is that there are those here [Suzianne as a prime example] who take
any criticisms of their god and/or religion as personal and disrespectful attacks on themselves.

If people can stop taking attacks on their beliefs as attacks of them then maybe we have a ball game.

I am not optimistic that that is at all likely to happen.

Yes, well, when one states that such beliefs are immoral, incoherent, dangerous, moronic, ephemeral, fantastical, made-up, disingenuous, fairy-tales, fraudulent, deceitful, nonsensical, hypocrisy, guile, dissimulation, duplicitous, insincere, dishonest, deceiving... (you see where I'm going with this), what is anyone supposed to think this says about the holder of such beliefs?

Only that they themselves are all these things. Not too respectful, is it?

Originally posted by josephw
Wouldn't you agree?

But if you were to state any heart-felt belief in God or something in the Bible and someone came up to you and said to you, "I think that belief is hideously immoral", what do you think they are saying, that "Oh, but I imagine you yourself are an incredibly moral, upstanding gentleman"?

No, they think you are as "hideously immoral" as what you believe. Do we think Nazis were all nice guys, that it was only their beliefs that were immoral? No.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
So we understand the ground rules.

If I say (as I believe) that any God that tortures people in hell for all eternity is infinitely evil, would you regard this as:

1 Hate-speech
2 Disrespectful
3 Rude

Would your view change if I added that any person who supports this doctrine is immoral?

That is an idea in my opinion, now if you say "your God", or find another way to direct that
towards me, I would think you are attempting to insult me.

Simply expressing an idea or view isn't insulting, I believe in some things that I find are
very nasty, but I do not hold that all of my beliefs have to be well liked by me to be true.

If my truth depends on my liking it, than only my opinion matters on reality nothing and
no one else' would.