Intelligent? Design

Originally posted by sonhouse
Yes, of course that is what the evidence says for OUR universe, but the bit about the clock starting 15 odd billion years ago could just be our LOCAL clock starting if there are other universes out there, and of course I fully realize that is conjecture but it cannot be proven or disproven ATT so it is not in the realm of science, I know that. It has yet to be proven OUR clock is the only one.

But I am talking about our universe. All the evidence points to our universe having a beginning. Other imaginary universes are somewhat irrelevant.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
So we are going for God is more complex. Brilliant. So if a more complex thing like God does not require a designer, then it stands to reason that a less complex thing doesn't need a designer either. Simples.

We accept that the universe has time limits on itself from a beginning to its current age. God referring to the God we see in scripture is described as eternal. So any comparison with God and anything in the universe or the universe itself is meaningless. There isn't any real comparison to God, at best our grasps to understand Him only give us an inkling of who and what God is like.

Originally posted by sonhouse
You expect humans to answer that? In light of the fact that modern science is only a few hundred years old?

Come back in a thousand years, assuming science GETS another thousand years of growth and there might be a real answer to that question.

Science is still in kindergarten, a long way to go yet.

You tell us how God would act if real so if you can tell us that, why not tell us or give us your best guess how the universe started?

Originally posted by sonhouse
You say you are a physicist, so you must know the BB is still theoretical even though it answers some of the problems inherent in that.

There also are hypotheses we live in a multiverse wih extra dimentions so the book has definitely not been written yet about the nature of the universe or universes. You probably already know about the parent universe hy ...[text shortened]... m to knowledge anywone else has on the subject, that about covers MY incredibly vast knowledge🙂

B.B. Does not answer where everything came from it only suggests how everything could go from one state to another. Nothing about what occurred before and what changed to start the B.B.

Originally posted by KellyJay
B.B. Does not answer where everything came from it only suggests how everything could go from one state to another. Nothing about what occurred before and what changed to start the B.B.

That is entirely correct. The BS story of something coming from nothing is just that, BS. There was SOMETHING, energy? probabaly, pumped into our universe, tons of it like a kid blowing up his bicycle tire or something. One theory goes like this: Our universe started as a result of a black hole in a parent universe becoming a white hole in ours, actually creating our universe and implying our universe may have black holes doing the same so we may have daughter universes. And OF COURSE right now that is just conjecure, there is very little evidence of any of that but come back in a hundred years and there will be a lot more Earthlings can say on the subject.

If our universe was made to be compatible with life then life should be everywhere half way decent conditions exist so mankind is therefore not unique but only one of trillions of such species in the universe, no pedestal for humans.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is entirely correct. The BS story of something coming from nothing is just that, BS. There was SOMETHING, energy? probabaly, pumped into our universe, tons of it like a kid blowing up his bicycle tire or something. One theory goes like this: Our universe started as a result of a black hole in a parent universe becoming a white hole in ours, actually cr ...[text shortened]... re not unique but only one of trillions of such species in the universe, no pedestal for humans.

There was something? Why not there was someone?

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is entirely correct. The BS story of something coming from nothing is just that, BS. There was SOMETHING, energy? probabaly, pumped into our universe, tons of it like a kid blowing up his bicycle tire or something. One theory goes like this: Our universe started as a result of a black hole in a parent universe becoming a white hole in ours, actually cr ...[text shortened]... re not unique but only one of trillions of such species in the universe, no pedestal for humans.

An endless parade of sources that feed into other sources? Just cannot come up with
anything about a beginning that doesn't require a beginning without God?

Originally posted by KellyJay
An endless parade of sources that feed into other sources? Just cannot come up with
anything about a beginning that doesn't require a beginning without God?

I am not the one who came up with those conjectures, just reporting the possibility. I have no opinion as to whether a god is needed for all that or not.

It doesn't really matter does it? You can clearly see there is no god in our present life, no god giving advice to anyone on the planet.

The thing is, if a god, an omniscient being, wanted to, it could communicate very intimately with every person on the planet in their own language all at the same time, a kind of human sync pulse that would straighten everyone on the planet as to their relationship to a god.

As it is now, all we get is a bunch of religious zealot asssholes SAYING they speak for god and a huge number of adherents totally believing him or her.

THAT is not spirituality. THAT is human politics pure and simple.

Think Davidians. You can see how well THAT worked out.

So supposing there is some kind of god, it simply does not WANT to establish communications with ordinary humans, instead, limiting it's alleged communications to a hierarchy of humans. But there is not just ONE human at the head of all this, there are frigging HUNDREDS of them. That does not strike me as anything close to spiritual, instead, politics as usual, get the most political power you can muster for your special forces.

And that goes just as much for Christianity as well as every other organized religion on Earth.

At least Buddhists say they don't require you to believe in any kind of god, just go for getting your act together in the here and now.

BTW, I am not at this time and probably at any other time, ever going to be a Buddhist but if I had to chose one, that would probably be the one I would follow.

It doesn't require one to establish a personal relationship with some god or other, it seems to me to be instructions for life.

That, to me, puts it above all the other organized religions, not that I am any kind of expert on religions, there are probably others similar, maybe even based on Budhhism, don't know.

But I do know this: adhering to a given religion, Hindu, Judaism, Christianity, Islam mainly, just leads to religious wars which of course Christianity rationalizes as saying those other nasty religions are the work of the devil. What paranoid rot. Christianity came about as the result of a single human starting it, much like L Ron Hubbard started that insane "religion'' Scientology.

All we get are religious wars, Isis, Boko Haram, and their ilk, hate westerners totally and enjoy killing them or even other Muslims who are not Muslim ENOUGH.

With them it IS politics, since they want total power over their people, telling them when they can poop and how much, you want to leave, we have a nice AK47 aimed at your daughter's head.....

So from YOUR POV, all we would need for peace is if every human on Earth converted to Chrisianity. Seems to me the same would happen if everyone on Earth joined Isis or Boko Haram and such. Any total population in one religion would end religious war but the funny thing is, that is impossible, so that is out. So we are stuck forever with religious wars. Good indication of the intelligence and compassion level of the human race.

If we could ever shuck the shackles of religion, the race would then have a chance to actually achieve racial maturity. Maybe even take care of the planet rather than destroying it as we are now.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I am not the one who came up with those conjectures, just reporting the possibility. I have no opinion as to whether a god is needed for all that or not.

It doesn't really matter does it? You can clearly see there is no god in our present life, no god giving advice to anyone on the planet.

The thing is, if a god, an omniscient being, wanted to, it cou ...[text shortened]... eve racial maturity. Maybe even take care of the planet rather than destroying it as we are now.

We should be able to settle one question that the universe itself is evidence. It's very presence present questions not easily answered, and God does answer them in ways that does not require endless new lays giving us new questions.

Originally posted by KellyJay
We should be able to settle one question that the universe itself is evidence. It's very presence present questions not easily answered, and God does answer them in ways that does not require endless new lays giving us new questions.

God doesn't answer anything. It is a strict hands off god. The questions we raise about the universe comes from humans and humans only. A god doesn't need to pose the question in our brains like why are there waves on the ocean, we use our own built in reason and intelligence and observation power to come up with our own question.

You follow down the 'god gives us the questions' and you end up denying humans have any creativity of their own, their own levels of intelligence, and in the religious view, if god is the one giving us questions, we would not be much higher on the totem pole of life than apes.

It disses our own intelligence to say god gives us the questions.

Originally posted by sonhouse
God doesn't answer anything. It is a strict hands off god. The questions we raise about the universe comes from humans and humans only. A god doesn't need to pose the question in our brains like why are there waves on the ocean, we use our own built in reason and intelligence and observation power to come up with our own question.

You follow down the 'g ...[text shortened]... em pole of life than apes.

It disses our own intelligence to say god gives us the questions.

I don't believe in a hands off God.

Originally posted by sonhouse
God doesn't answer anything. It is a strict hands off god. The questions we raise about the universe comes from humans and humans only. A god doesn't need to pose the question in our brains like why are there waves on the ocean, we use our own built in reason and intelligence and observation power to come up with our own question.

You follow down the 'g ...[text shortened]... em pole of life than apes.

It disses our own intelligence to say god gives us the questions.

Lets remember who we are talking about, not a genie in a bottle but a Sovereign God
so not getting what we want, not avoiding great pain, isn't a sign of God not being there.

The universe and its mysteries remain for us if God created the universe or not, the only
difference is now we would have to take into account a reason, not just a mystery in
anything we study.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Lets remember who we are talking about, not a genie in a bottle but a Sovereign God
so not getting what we want, not avoiding great pain, isn't a sign of God not being there.

The universe and its mysteries remain for us if God created the universe or not, the only
difference is now we would have to take into account a reason, not just a mystery in
anything we study.

Except your reason is based on your faith NOT science. You just believe what you have been told and that based on a man made bible. If god wants to come down and strike me dead for blasphemy so be it. Till then I can't accept this alleged god and humans telling me about it. If your god wants to tell me all about itself, fine.

Till then, I don't listen to humans since mostly they are political, like Hinds, he has a definite political agenda when he talks about the world being 6000 years old and such, he wants to kill evolution completely, as a science, and to force science teachers to teach creation 'science' in a science classroom.

If that isn't politics pure and simple, I don't know the meaning of the word.

What I don't understand is how people can be so taken in by such verses as 'I am a jealous god' or 'a man is worth 50 shekels but a woman only 30'.

Those are the words of men trying to anthropomorphize this god into human terms and people can readily understand a god who gets pisssed, jealous and so forth.

Right, like a god capable of calling in an entire universe would EVER be jealous of one of its own creations. How can people supposedly intelligent ever buy that obvious man made crap?

Do you seriously think if a god, say, your god, actually came down to Earth and people asked this god, so are men worth more than women?

Do you seriously expect it to say "A man is worth 50 shekels, a woman 30'?

Just exactly why would a god ever be jealous of any human? I think the christian/Judea idea is jealous for not worshiping this god.

So that would mean it must be jealous of about 6 billion people since that is how many people on Earth there are not christian or Jewish.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Except your reason is based on your faith NOT science. You just believe what you have been told and that based on a man made bible. If god wants to come down and strike me dead for blasphemy so be it. Till then I can't accept this alleged god and humans telling me about it. If your god wants to tell me all about itself, fine.

Till then, I don't listen t ...[text shortened]... about 6 billion people since that is how many people on Earth there are not christian or Jewish.

Your reason isn't on faith? You believe in something here, you cannot even come up
with a single possible beginning instead you just find one more possible source that
has to feed by something else. You have nothing where it all begins even in your
imagination, for me I'd say that is evidence.

The other things you brought up can be addressed separately if you wish, they have
nothing to do with this subject..

Originally posted by KellyJay... You have nothing where it all begins even in your
imagination, ...

We can't understand the infinities. So, ... goddidit. whew, problem solved.