19 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloI've thought of that also. I think God, being eternal, omniscient, does not change his mind, but there are many examples of God reacting and interacting with man. Also, while I believe mans mind is like God, in that mankind can think in abstract terms, and use reasoning - it can not be exactly the way God thinks.
can an omniscient being ever 'change his mind'? i wouldn't think so because since he is omniscient, he can forsee all future events. if you can forsee all future events, then you know all the decisions you will in fact make. how could you ever change your mind in that case?
We think by linking concepts together one after another, deducing new concepts. But God being omniscient already knows all knowable things, and his thoughts are eternal. So the main difference between the thinking of God and man is the way mans mind changes and develops.
God reacts to man for a purpose - not because his knowledge is changing or evolving, but because man's knowledge evolves and changes. So God reacts to man to communicate knowledge.
19 May 05
Originally posted by telerionAs far as God creating reality, no He did not. God existed before creation, and God is part of reality.
Hmm . . . this is hard.
For dj2becker or Coletti, let 'reality' = everything that is real.
For the rest of us, I don't have a definition yet.
However, in a strictly empirical sense, God created reality. By that I mean God created all things things we experience with our physical senses. Time and matter were created by God.
If we include as part of what is real, our thoughts and ideas, concepts like freedom, love, pain, then God did not create these thing as much as he is the first cause of these things. God created our minds, and the material world. But we create or learn thoughts and ideas.
I include knowledge as a part of reality, including abstract ideas. So God did not create all reality in that sense.
19 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiA much better response then those given by the other fundamentalists here.
As far as God creating reality, no He did not. God existed before creation, and God is part of reality.
However, in a strictly empirical sense, God created reality. By that I mean God created all things things we experience with our physical senses. Time and matter were created by God.
If we include as part of what is real, our thoughts and ideas, ...[text shortened]... s a part of reality, including abstract ideas. So God did not create all reality in that sense.
This implies though that God is bounded and finite in some sense. He is only a subset of reality, just as the reality in an 'empirical sense' to which you refer is really just another subset of reality. Are you comfortable with that characterization of God?
19 May 05
Originally posted by telerionI think God is within the subset of reality. Sort of similar to saying God is in the subset of truth. I would say he is bounded by his defining characteristics. I'm not comfortable with the term finite because it might cause confusion, I'd have to qualify the term every time I used it.
A much better response then those given by the other fundamentalists here.
This implies though that God is bounded and finite in some sense. He is only a subset of reality, just as the reality in an 'empirical sense' to which you refer is really just another subset of reality. Are you comfortable with that characterization of God?
19 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by telerionGod is in my opinion reality. I'm not suggesting that God is some
Great then both you have taken to the dj2/Coletti definition that I gave early on in the thread.
Now back to the OP. Is God the creator of reality and is God a subset of his creation (i.e. did he create himself?)
non being, because God creates, moves as He will, does as He will,
is what He is, and beyond God is His creation, within which we reside.
To answer your question, God did not create Himself nor did another.
Kelly
19 May 05
Originally posted by KellyJayGod is in my opinion reality.
God is in my opinion reality. I'm not suggesting that God is some
non being, because God creates, moves as He will, does as He will,
is what He is, and beyond God is His creation, within which we reside.
To answer your question, God did not create Himself nor did another.
Kelly
OK, but using the definition that reality is the set of all that is real that was given earlier, is God just a subset of this set or is he the set itself? You say that he did not create himself so he cannot be a subset. This means that God must be the set itself.
I get confused though because then you contradict this when you say, "beyond God is His creation." If creation is real, then it is a member of the set of reality. If God is the set of reality, then creation cannot be "beyond" God. The only way that these could be harmonized is to say that creation is not real, but then that means that you, I, the Bible, and xtianty are not real.
Another potential conflict that I see is if God is the set of all that is real, i.e. reality, then we end up with pantheism. God is the entire collection of you, me, love, pain, Mars, sin, etc. plus whatever is real that is not part of creation. Name something that is real, and it is part of God.
19 May 05
Originally posted by telerionAs soon as I get done with my honey do list, I'll attempt to answer
[b]God is in my opinion reality.
OK, but using the definition that reality is the set of all that is real that was given earlier, is God just a subset of this set or is he the set itself? You say that he did not create himself so he cannot be a subset. This means that God must be the set itself.
I get confused though because then you contradict ...[text shortened]... tever is real that is not part of creation. Name something that is real, and it is part of God.[/b]
your questions.
Kelly
19 May 05
Originally posted by telerionThen we must suppose that GOD is real when someone has the faith to believe that HE is. Then if someone has the faith that GOD is real and HIS WORD is real,then to that person all that is about GOD is real. Is that not reality? Then is not GOD the creater of reality? Even though there are those that do not believe in HIM? Is not the reality in those that do?
Here you go BF. You'll see that I eliminated all the other text in the thread not directly related to your question. Perhaps now you can read it.
posted by Lemon on page1
my first thought is to wonder what you mean specifically by 'reality'.
response by Telerion on page 1
For dj2becker or Coletti, let 'reality' = everything tha ...[text shortened]... rating definition of reality (for dj2 and Coletti, [b]and you too I suppose.)
[/b]
19 May 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101(sigh)
Then we must suppose that GOD is real when someone has the faith to believe that HE is. Then if someone has the faith that GOD is real and HIS WORD is real,then to that person all that is about GOD is real. Is that not reality? Then is not GOD the creater of reality? Even though there are those that do not believe in HIM? Is not the reality in those that do?
20 May 05
Originally posted by Colettithis is a very good post.
As far as God creating reality, no He did not. God existed before creation, and God is part of reality.
However, in a strictly empirical sense, God created reality. By that I mean God created all things things we experience with our physical senses. Time and matter were created by God.
If we include as part of what is real, our thoughts and ideas, ...[text shortened]... s a part of reality, including abstract ideas. So God did not create all reality in that sense.
do you think that this goes against your belief that there is no free will? you state that god created our minds, but we create our own thoughts and ideas. doesn't that sound a little like free will, maybe?
20 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by blindfaith101Then we must suppose that GOD is real when someone has the faith to believe that HE is.
Then we must suppose that GOD is real when someone has the faith to believe that HE is. Then if someone has the faith that GOD is real and HIS WORD is real,then to that person all that is about GOD is real. Is that not reality? Then i ...[text shortened]... e that do not believe in HIM? Is not the reality in those that do?
i disagree strongly with this. what definition of 'reality' are you employing?
Then if someone has the faith that GOD is real and HIS WORD is real,then to that person all that is about GOD is real.
i think this only shows that the person you speak of and his associated thoughts are real -- it does not show that the object of his thoughts, god, is a real entity. again, i am not sure what definition of real you are using, but i am pretty sure at this point that i would disagree with whatever it is.
Then is not GOD the creater of reality?
this seems to me contradictory to what you have stated above. you state above that 'god is real when someone has the faith to believe that he is'. that to me means that if nobody were to have any faith in god, then he would not be real. how could something whose reality is derivative of, or dependent on, something real be the creator of reality? i would think you can only reconcile your position by stating that god can be the creator of reality even though he may not be real. but if god is not real, doesn't that mean he doesn't exist? if he doesn't exist, how can he be the creator of reality? i'm confused. 🙄
20 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloThat's closer to free agency. Free will (as I understand it) says that in any given situation a person is free to choice between the good action or the evil action (or any number of actions). So that if a person does good or evil, it is because he was free to go either way.
this is a very good post.
do you think that this goes against your belief that there is no free will? you state that god created our minds, but we create our own thoughts and ideas. doesn't that sound a little like free will, maybe?
Free moral agency says a person will choice what is in accordance to his nature, whether good or evil. He is not really free to do anything at all, he will only do what his nature dictates. So of like saying a computer most answer according to it's programming. So the agent is free to choice according to his will, but that does not mean his will is freely changeable.
We don't know always what we are going to do, or what choices we will make. And this uncertainty gives us the illusion that we could have done something other than what we have chosen. We think "what if I had done A instead of B?" But we did what we did and that can not be changed. I think our future choices are just as linear as our past. So we are not really free to do other than what we are going to do.
Does that make sense? I'm sure there are some problems with my argument - some details I need to work out.
20 May 05
2 edits
Originally posted by Colettiyes, your post does seem to make a lot of sense, and i think it is consistent with your earlier posts on the subject.
Does that make sense? I'm sure there are some problems with my argument - some details I need to work out.
i am still puzzled about a few things though. let's start with the definition you gave above:
Free will (as I understand it) says that in any given situation a person is free to choice between the good action or the evil action (or any number of actions).
i don't know if you have ever seen the movie The Reckoning (came out in 2004 i think), but near the end there is scene in a church where some guys are arguing. at any rate, one of the points that the movie puts forth (and i think a lot of people hold this view) is that (i'm paraphrasing the movie here) 'evil does not spring from god himself, but rather manifests itself in the freedom of choice that he gave to us.' do you agree with this?
because it seems to me that this view is specifically referring to a belief that god grants us free will, as defined by your definition above: according to your arguments, if a person commits an evil act, then he had no choice but to commit that act; but surely if god granted us the freedom of choice, he would want us to have the possibility to do the right thing in every instance, right? i mean, in the bible he does say that we should always strive to do the right thing, so it only makes sense that he would give us the ability to always choose the right action in every instance (even if we could never actually live up to that standard). then that would imply that the person who committed the evil act actually had the choice, or power, to commit the good act instead. and this line would apply to any decision he has before him because god would want him to at least have the ability to do the right thing in every instance -- thus he would have free will granted to him by god.
in short, the bible stresses that we should always try to do the right thing, but if we do not have free will, then it follows that when we sin, it would have been impossible for us not to have sinned. to me that seems peculiar.
this is probably getting way off topic. oh well -- i really enjoy discussing free will...
20 May 05
Originally posted by telerionI don't think I have contradicted myself. The creation is real, God
[b]God is in my opinion reality.
OK, but using the definition that reality is the set of all that is real that was given earlier, is God just a subset of this set or is he the set itself? You say that he did not create himself so he cannot be a subset. This means that God must be the set itself.
I get confused though because then you contradict ...[text shortened]... tever is real that is not part of creation. Name something that is real, and it is part of God.[/b]
made it, but because God made it, it is as He wills it to be. The reality
of the creation depends completely on God, and does not depend on
what we think about it, it is what it is.
Kelly