Is the trinity pagan ?

This study is written by George Zeller (introductory comments) and by Julius Mantey (main article). It provides some help with respect to the erroneous teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God and they deny that He is Jehovah. They teach instead that He is a mere creature, an exalted angel that God created. They wrongly teach that He was the first creature that God created, and then God, through Him, created everything else. This article deals with their mistranslation of John 1:1, a verse which clearly declares that Jesus Christ is God.

Jehovah’s Witnesses wrongly translate John 1:1 as follows: "Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god" (New World Translation, 1960 edition, emphasis mine). In their Appendix they have an article explaining why they translate it this way and they quote from A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by Dana and Mantey to justify their translation.

Julius Mantey, upon learning that he had been quoted, wrote a two page article showing that it is not proper to translate this verse as the Jehovah Witnesses had done. He entitled his article A Grossly Misleading Translation. Mantey skillfully explains the grammar of this verse and the significance of the absence of the Greek article in the last phrase of verse 1. Dr. Mantey’s article is reproduced below in full:

A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION

John 1:1 which reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God," is shockingly mistranslated, "Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god," in a New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published under the auspices of Jehovah*s Witnesses.

Since my name is used and our Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament is quoted on page 744 to seek to justify their translation, I am making this statement.

The translation suggested in our Grammar for the disputed passage is, "the Word was deity." Moffatt*s rendering is "the Word was divine." Williams* translation is, "the Word was God himself." Each translation reflects the dominant idea in the Greek, For, whenever an article does not precede a noun in Greek, that noun can either be considered as emphasizing the character, nature, essence or quality of a person or thing, as theos (God) does in John 1:1, or it can be translated in certain contexts as indefinite, as they have done.

If the Greek article occurred with both Word and God in John 1:1 the implication would be that they are one and the same person, absolutely identical. But John affirmed that "the Word was with (the) God" (the definite article preceding each noun), and in so writing he indicated his belief that they were distinct and separate personalities. Then John next stated that the Word was God, i.e., of the same family or essence that characterizes the Creator. Or, in other words, that both are of the same nature, and that nature is the highest in existence, namely, divine.

Examples where the noun in the predicate does not have an article, as in the above verse, are: John 4:24, "God is spirit" (not a spirit; 1 John 4:16, "God is love" (not a love); and Matthew 13:39, "the reapers are angels," i.e., they are the type of beings known as angels. In each instance the noun in the predicate was used to describe some quality or characteristic of the subject, whether as to nature or type.

The apostle John in the context of the introduction to his gospel is pulling all the stops out of language to portray not only the deity of Christ but also His equality with the Father. He states that the Word was in the beginning, that He was with God, that He was God and that all creation came into existence through Him and that not even one thing exists which was not created by Christ. What else could be said that John did not say? In John 1:18 he explained that Christ has been so intimate with the Father that He was in His bosom and that He came to earth to exhibit or portray God. But if we had no other statement from John except that which is found in John 14:9, "He that has seen me has seen the Father," that would be enough to satisfy the seeking soul that Christ and God are the same in essence and that both are divine and equal in nature.

Besides, the whole tenor of New Testament revelation points in this direction. Compare Paul*s declaration in Colossians 1:19 for instance: "That all the divine fullness should dwell in Him," or the statement in Hebrews 1:3, "He is the reflection of God*s glory and the perfect representation of His being, and continues to uphold the universe by His mighty word" (Williams* translation). And note the sweeping, cosmic claim recorded in Matthew 28:19, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."

And, if we contrast with that the belittling implication that Christ was only a god, do we not at once detect the discord? Does not such a conception conflict with the New Testament message both in whole and in part? Why, if John, in the midst of the idolatry of his day, had made such a statement would not the first century hearers and readers have gotten a totally inadequate picture of Christ who we believe is the Creator of the universe and the only Redeemer of humanity?

Julius Robert Mantey, A.B., Th.D., Ph.D., D.D.
Professor of Greek and New Testament
Northern Baptist Theological Seminary
Chicago, Illinois

PS: Normally I don't spam like this but it's very on point to the OP and the understanding of the triune nature of God

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ, and claim that John 1:1 merely calls him “a god,” but not full deity. They rest their case on three facts of Greek grammar:

There is no such word as “a” or “an” in Greek, so we sometimes have to add “a” to translate into English, (Acts 28:6).
The Greek word used here (theos) has two meanings: usually the sup ...[text shortened]... ke 99.9% of scholars agree that the correct rendering is opposite what JW's claim ?

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
This study is written by George Zeller (introductory comments) and by Julius Mantey (main article). It provides some help with respect to the erroneous teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God and they deny that He is Jehovah. They teach instead that He is a mere creature, an exalted angel that God creat ...[text shortened]... e OP and the understanding of the triune nature of God

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ, and claim that John 1:1 merely calls him “a god,” but not full deity. They rest their case on three facts of Greek grammar:

There is no such word as “a” or “an” in Greek, so we sometimes have to add “a” to translate into English, (Acts 28:6).
The Greek word used here (theos) has two meanings: usually the sup ...[text shortened]... ke 99.9% of scholars agree that the correct rendering is opposite what JW's claim ?

Manny

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Logos is in reference to the beginning in Genesis in which God speaks things into existence. The Logos or Word refers to the Son, who creates things by saying them into existence. It is by the Word that in the beginning that all things were created. That is the reason John uses Logos to represent the Son, who was with God and was God in the beginning.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you have not understood the word logos despite my giving away the important clue of heraclitus.

logos means in the mundane sense; "word", "account", "plan", "formula", "measure", "proportion", "reckoning."

heraclitus the philosopher some years before john was written envisioned a principle of order and knowledge in connection with the logos, this ph ...[text shortened]... w testament supports the position of christ as the manifestation of god's plan.

Originally posted by menace71
Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ, and claim that John 1:1 merely calls him “a god,” but not full deity. They rest their case on three facts of Greek grammar:

There is no such word as “a” or “an” in Greek, so we sometimes have to add “a” to translate into English, (Acts 28:6).
The Greek word used here (theos) has two meanings: usually the sup ke 99.9% of scholars agree that the correct rendering is opposite what JW's claim ?

Manny

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No on has seen God at any time, how is it then that your translators are saying that Jesus is God, has no one seen Jesus at any time? Your scholars are blinded by their religious bias to some pagan doctrine that is why they ignore the scared text, the Greek idiom and every other rational and reasonable premise for translating the verse correctly and ...[text shortened]... alf, ask them to explain the concept themselves and they are at a complete loss. Trinity sucks.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Did you get amnesia again?

[b]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
(John 1:18 NASB)

Jesus said, “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."
(John 5:37 NASB)

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, ...[text shortened]... 10 NASB)


http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/has-anyone-seen-god-or-not

Originally posted by galveston75
Think outside the box. No way did Jesus mean you actually see him in a physical way. AGAIN........"NO MAN MAY SEE GOD AND LIVE" Try and try and try and still try to grasp that statement from YOUR Bible.
Remember Jesus is the word or spokesman for his Father? He NEVER said he was his Father, ever.

Try to grasp this.....he is representing his Father m".

Anything? Does any of that make any sence to you? Still nothing? Not even close yet?

Originally posted by RJHinds
The difference is Jesus is God in essence and substance, so seeing Jesus is the same as seeing God. If you were to see my body, you would not say I have never seen RJHinds at any time. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, so that is why He could say if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. God is of one essence and substance that can not be divided ...[text shortened]... s ever seen my soul or spirit at anytime either. They have only seen my picture or my body. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
No, you are wrong. It can not be translated that way. This is John writing, not Heraclitus. Logos does not mean "plan" it means exactly what I said it means. 🙄

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol. That is supposed to make sence?

"God is of one essence and substance that can not be divided and Jesus is included in that essence and substance of God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit."

So you say God cannot be divided but yet you say he is somehow when Jesus leaves that god being thing and came to earth?
So did he divide or not? ...[text shortened]... are just supposed to take your word and version on this and say "yep it must be the truth?"

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
it's written in greek and in greek in means plan. john uses the word in that same sense. it's amazing the amount of convolutions you pagan trinitarians have to go through to justify believing in your multiple gods.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe in the plain truth of the gospel of Christ. We trinitarians don't believe in multiple gods, like the JWs. We believe in ONE GOD in three persons.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!