03 Jul 19
@rajk999 saidI understand what you're saying, but I still think at minimum, God wants us to at least believe He exists. This is a personal statement, not some church doctrine.
I see you started going to church. Well thats the end of you. From here on its downhill.
Just bear the words of Christ n mind when your church starts to show you their true colours. Take for example the words of Christ when he started his ministry. The longest sermon, in Matt 5, 6 and 7 Jesus speaks at length about what it is that is required of people to get eternal life ...[text shortened]... ose who miss that basic point from Christ are truly lost, and that includes many Christian churches.
"Blessed are those who believe, but have not seen"
"Lord I believe, but help my unbelief"
Belief is likely required.
03 Jul 19
@chaney3 saidAre you saying that people who have never heard of Christ are doomed?
I understand what you're saying, but I still think at minimum, God wants us to at least believe He exists. This is a personal statement, not some church doctrine.
"Blessed are those who believe, but have not seen"
"Lord I believe, but help my unbelief"
Belief is likely required.
@rajk999 saidMark 10:18 is widely open to interpretation.
Jesus also referred to those who did good works, the sheep of Matt 25, as righteous and they were rewarded with eternal life in the Kingdom of God.
Clearly then 'good' in the sense Jesus used it in Mark 10:18, meant good to the point of perfection. Only God presumably is that good. Nobody is expected to be perfect in that sense otherwise nobody gets into the Kingdom of Go ...[text shortened]... are allowed to enter the Kingdom of God based on their good works as Jesus said half a dozen times.
People take it out of context, make of it whatever they want and delude themselves into believing that it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind:
Jesus is repudiating that He is God.
Jesus is affirming that He is God.
Jesus is telling the man that He himself is not good.
Jesus is telling the man that He is good.
Now according to GoaD, Jesus is declaring that no one is able to make themselves righteous - which is an even bigger reach than the claims above.
With ambiguous utterances such as Mark 10:18, it's best to gain an understanding of the text around it and the versions available in the other gospels.
Mark 18
17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
19“You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”
Matthew 19
16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
The main point Jesus is making is that in order to obtain eternal life one must keep the commandments. In other words, in order to obtain eternal life one must make themselves righteous.
The point of the question was to point out that the man already knows what good things he needs to do to obtain eternal life: keep the commandments of God. In other words: God is "good". The commandments of God are "good".
03 Jul 19
@suzianne saidYou really need to learn that people often reject without understanding. For example: KJ rejects evolutionary theory, but doesn't understand the underlying concepts. He claims to understand it, but
You really need to learn the distinction between someone not understanding what you said and actually rejecting what you said.
There was nothing in jaywill's response that can be reasonably taken as indicating an understanding of the underlying points of my post.
03 Jul 19
@chaney3 saidYou seem confused about the meaning of "believe" in regards to the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth.
Atheists reject Jesus, even if that means they don't "believe".
Yes, I am focusing on the importance of believing in God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. It appears that "belief" must come first, before the "works" debate can even begin.
Think about this:
Anyone who truly KEEPS the commandments spoken by Jesus while He walked the Earth also truly BELIEVES in the concepts underlying those commandments.
Anyone who does not truly BELIEVE in the concepts underlying those commandments will not truly KEEP the commandments.
Make sense?
03 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidActually, it is you who's confused.
You seem confused about the meaning of "believe" in regards to the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth.
Think about this:
Anyone who truly KEEPS the commandments spoken by Jesus while He walked the Earth also truly BELIEVES in the concepts underlying those commandments.
Anyone who does not truly BELIEVE in the concepts underlying those commandments will not truly KEEP the commandments.
Make sense?
You are saying that believing in the "concepts" is good enough, and that "belief" in God and Jesus is NOT needed.
That is flawed.
@thinkofone saidPlease, when you get questioned and not just by me there are almost nothing but excuses why you don't answer a straight up question honestly. If I were the only one here expressing this to you, maybe you would be able to deny it and say it is just me. You are told these things however by believers and non-believers, and your responses are not much different than this one. Instead of talking things through staying on point, you insult and belittle. Insulting people is not an attempt to win an argument, or even prove a point, it is simply a means to tear someone down.
You truly are shameless.
@kellyjay saidFollowing is the post that you've been avoiding since page 6:
Please, when you get questioned and not just by me there are almost nothing but excuses why you don't answer a straight up question honestly. If I were the only one here expressing this to you, maybe you would be able to deny it and say it is just me. You are told these things however by believers and non-believers, and your responses are not much different than this one. In ...[text shortened]... not an attempt to win an argument, or even prove a point, it is simply a means to tear someone down.
Yes. In accordance with the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth, the words spoken by Him are in "complete harmony" with God's words. It also makes logical sense that the spirit of truth would be in "complete harmony" with both Jesus and God.
The problem is that the gospel in which you believe is NOT in "complete harmony" with the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth.
For example, the concept that no one is able to make themselves righteous is NOT part of the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth. If you believe that this is not true, then prove it by citing all the passages that back that up.
That post refuted an assertion of yours. Since then you've avoided addressing it in every conceivable way - no matter how many times it's been placed before you.
One way you avoided it was by attempting to change the subject - including this latest question of yours.
Then you shamelessly accused me of avoiding your question - which was asked so that you could avoid addressing the point of my post in the first place. Does it get any more shameless than that?
You truly are shameless.
And it's far from the first time you've done something like this.
03 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidThe doctrine that nobody can make themselves righteous is at the core of church Christianity. Jesus never said they cannot. Jesus simply said to go and do good works and live righteously and gave all the details necessary for some one to understand. Jesus will judge.
Following is the post that you've been avoiding since page 6:
[quote]Yes. In accordance with the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth, the words spoken by Him are in "complete harmony" with God's words. It also makes logical sense that the spirit of truth would be in "complete harmony" with both Jesus and God.
The problem is that the gospel in which you ...[text shortened]... at?
You truly are shameless.
And it's far from the first time you've done something like this.
The doctrine that nobody can do any good works without Christ is just one way of excluding the rest of the world from the Kingdom of God. This what Jesus said about the Pharisees apply to some churches:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (Matthew 23:13 KJV)
The Pharisees like modern churches discourage good works among their own congregation and that will likely exclude them from the Kingdom of God. Plus they preach that nobody can do good works without Christ thereby discouraging others from even trying.
04 Jul 19
@thinkofone saidYou believe people can be righteous enough on their own to enter God's Kingdom?
Following is the post that you've been avoiding since page 6:
[quote]Yes. In accordance with the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth, the words spoken by Him are in "complete harmony" with God's words. It also makes logical sense that the spirit of truth would be in "complete harmony" with both Jesus and God.
The problem is that the gospel in which you ...[text shortened]... at?
You truly are shameless.
And it's far from the first time you've done something like this.
You think the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, in complete harmony with each other?
04 Jul 19
@rajk999 saidMatthew 5
Jesus believes people can be righteous on their own to enter Gods kingdom.
Read Matt 5.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
If you read the whole chapter you may not think so instead of just a couple of hand picked verses.
04 Jul 19
@kellyjay saidThis is a good example of why people dont bother communicating with you. You make a statement and your supporting references do not support your statement..
Matthew 5
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward ...[text shortened]...
If you read the whole chapter you may not think so instead of just a couple of hand picked verses.