Judaism and Slavery in the Biblical Era

Originally posted by KellyJay
You don't grasp the point if this is what you are attempting to prove.
Kelly

My post gave the standard by which to judge slavery an abomination.
My post pointed out that it is a standard that Jesus recognized.
I recognize that standard as an eternal truth and am asking you if you also recognize it as an eternal truth. Do you?

If you think that my post failed, then clearly and explicitly state where it fell short.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
My post gave the standard by which to judge slavery an abomination.
My post pointed out that it is a standard that Jesus recognized.
I recognize that standard as an eternal truth and am asking you if you also recognize it as an eternal truth. Do you?

If you think that my post failed, then clearly and explicitly state where it fell short.

The God of the OT is the same God as the NT.
God has always been about setting us free!
God has been working towards that and it has not been just about slavery, but sin
and death. If you don't acknowledge the God of the OT and the NT as the same
than there are other issues at work here.

During the time of OT, God did not say, "Never have a slave", He set boundaries.
If you want to use God I suggest you look at the whole picture and not cherry
pick those things you like and forget or over look those you dislike.
Kelly

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I would prefer none, and i'm still to see a convincing argument as to why God didn't outlaw them.

Outlaw slavery, outlaw draconian punishments for crimes. But then this is the God who condemned people to death by burning and stoning.

You keep raising the point of debt slavery, i don't disagree with you on that point and have said so, in fact i thin ...[text shortened]... slave dying 24hrs after a beating was acceptable.

Do you think that's acceptable?

I would prefer none, and i'm still to see a convincing argument as to why God didn't outlaw them.

Later in your post you agree that slavery is an acceptable response or alternative to resolving debt by death and mutilation, here are your words:

I don't see that as slavery, in fact i think it's a good idea. I'm arguing against the practce of buying people as commodities and treating them as inheritable.

My response is that buying and selling people as commodities IS prohibited. If it is illegal for an Israelite to kidnap and sell someone into slavery, then it is illegal for them to buy those enslaved in such a manner as well. “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). It logically follows that the people from foreign lands would be under the same imposition, and the buying of foreign slaves that were kidnapped would be an abomination.

So then we are in agreement, the bible does not condone slavery, instead it is used as a tool to rectify an even worse issue.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The God of the OT is the same God as the NT.
God has always been about setting us free!
God has been working towards that and it has not been just about slavery, but sin
and death. If you don't acknowledge the God of the OT and the NT as the same
than there are other issues at work here.

During the time of OT, God did not say, "Never have a slave", H ...[text shortened]... and not cherry
pick those things you like and forget or over look those you dislike.
Kelly

Seems you've chosen to continue to ignore the question. You suggest that I "look at the whole picture", yet it is you who seemingly refuse to. It is you that chooses to "cherry pick" and ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable.

Whether you acknowledge them or not, they are there. The truth is always there.

The truth is that slavery in all its forms always was, is and always will be an abomination.
The truth is that explicitly giving approval to acquire and possess slaves (as was given in Leviticus 25) always was, is and always will be an abomination.

These are true because they show a lack of compassion for our fellow human beings as Jesus recognized in saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

You can choose how you wish to reconcile this, but it is dishonest to continue to ignore it.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

i have alerted your post for being abusive, having no relevence to the discussion, is slanderous and defamatory and constitutes a breach of the terms of agreement. if you cannot post without being abusive you should be stopped.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have alerted your post for being abusive, having no relevence to the discussion, is slanderous and defamatory and constitutes a breach of the terms of agreement. if you cannot post without being abusive you should be stopped.

It's simply the truth and you know it. The proof is contained in the history of this forum. Do you really believe that the removal of the post would make it any less true? What was slanderous and had "no relevence to the discussion" was your post that that was in response to. My post was relevant to your post.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Seems you've chosen to continue to ignore the question. You suggest that I "look at the whole picture", yet it is you who seemingly refuse to. It is you that chooses to "cherry pick" and ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable.

Whether you acknowledge them or not, they are there. The truth is always there.

The truth is that slavery in all its ...[text shortened]... can choose how you wish to reconcile this, but it is dishonest to continue to ignore it.

You are the one picking and choosing scripture to paint a picture that fits the
universe the way you want it to be. The same God of the OT is the same one in
the NT, so to pick a verse out of the NT ignoring all the verses in the OT is indeed
cherry picking what you like and avoiding that which you don't like.

I have said I believe slavery is bad, everywhere I see it, I see it the same way,
that it is wrong. I do not; however, think the universe started the day I was born
so that my views on any given topic are the only ones that matter. You it seems
want to say that, because you view slavery as wrong and bad it always was. I'm
telling you still that is not the samething as saying it was always wrong!

The only thing we are doing now is repeating ourselves so I'm going to stop,
unless you come up with something new, which I doubt you will.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are the one picking and choosing scripture to paint a picture that fits the
universe the way you want it to be. The same God of the OT is the same one in
the NT, so to pick a verse out of the NT ignoring all the verses in the OT is indeed
cherry picking what you like and avoiding that which you don't like.

I have said I believe slavery is bad, eve so I'm going to stop,
unless you come up with something new, which I doubt you will.
Kelly

If you believe that what Jesus said was an eternal truth, then it always has been, is and always will be the truth. One can only wonder why you refuse to answer the question.

Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Clearly Jesus believed it serves as a foundation and is eternal. So it's not just "cherry picking". It's the way Jesus "saw the universe"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's simply the truth and you know it. The proof is contained in the history of this forum. Do you really believe that the removal of the post would make it any less true? What was slanderous and had "no relevence to the discussion" was your post that that was in response to. My post was relevant to your post.

any further abuse, slander and defamation of character, false accusations shall also be reported. If you cannot post without recourse to any of the above you should be stopped, for your posts are a breach of the terms of agreement. You were asked by me, by realeyez why you need to post in abusive terms, you have failed to answer those allegations and your behaviour continues, you should be aware that it shall not be tolerated indefinitely and it will be reported. you have been warned.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you believe that what Jesus said was an eternal truth, then it always has been, is and always will be the truth. One can only wonder why you refuse to answer the question.

Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost comma ...[text shortened]... n and is eternal. So it's not just "cherry picking". It's the way Jesus "saw the universe"

As I stated before the Law on earth due to sin created a judgement, which is the wind in God's fist (this statement is satan, not God, for God is NOT in the storm), and yes, Christ DID show that LOVE is to be given in all directions to whomever throws their darts back at you, as he would turn the other cheek, and I have forgave the man that stabbed me 9 times with shearing scissors right after the incident, and recently told a man that I love him right after he had cole cocked the side of my right jaw, (this was due to me not understanding why he came and interrupted 3 of us in a chat, 2 gals and I, and he felt he had an opportunity with them, regardless I was having a discussion with them) and he approached me again, this time in a loving manner, and as he passed by he faked another swing, which knocked my hat off my head, and he quickly caught it, that it fell not, and I said to him "Damn it , I love you brother", due to the anger I felt after his foolishness.. I could not ever fathom to hit another, however in a heart beat I would if given the opportunity restrain their aorta to the ground and kiss their forehead, and say "What the F, I love you, damn it!"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you believe that what Jesus said was an eternal truth, then it always has been, is and always will be the truth. One can only wonder why you refuse to answer the question.

Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost comma ...[text shortened]... n and is eternal. So it's not just "cherry picking". It's the way Jesus "saw the universe"

I get that, not debating that! Does not change what was in the OT either now
does it?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I get that, not debating that! Does not change what was in the OT either now
does it?
Kelly

Your post is disingenuous. I was responding to your prior post which contained false assertions.

In that post you made the following assertion:
"You are the one picking and choosing scripture to paint a picture that fits the
universe the way you want it to be."

The point is that it isn't just the "way [I ] want it to be" as you try to characterize, but the way that compassion for our fellow human beings dictates that it need be which is also the way that Jesus dictated that it need be.

In that post you also made this assertion:
"You it seems want to say that, because you view slavery as wrong and bad it always was."

The point is that it isn't just because "[I ] view slavery as wrong and bad it always was" as you characterize, but to show that it is also as Jesus saw it since the "whole Law and the Prophets" hang on such a view.

Why do you think it should "change what was in the OT"? The OT says what it says. And it is an abomination that Leviticus 25 explicitly gives approval to acquire and possess slaves. An abomination that is made all too clear in the light of "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" on which "depend the whole Law and the Prophets".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your post is disingenuous. I was responding to your prior post which contained false assertions.

In that post you made the following assertion:
"You are the one picking and choosing scripture to paint a picture that fits the
universe the way you want it to be."

The point is that it isn't just the "way [I ] want it to be" as you try to characterize ...[text shortened]... E YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" on which "depend the whole Law and the Prophets".

You just posted you should LOVE your neighbor

THIS IS FACT