07 Nov 18
@divegeester saidThere to many to worry about, and I think you've shown your not interested in
What question haven’t I answered?
answering them.
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07 Nov 18
@kellyjay saidHere I am, again, asking you to give me your question.
There to many to worry about, and I think you've shown your not interested in
answering them.
Is your question (which you haven’t asked), how do I know that an unborn fetus which (allegedly) is full of original sin and fit for eternal torture... has a belief in Jesus?
Is that what you are asking me?
07 Nov 18
@divegeester saidNothing
Here I am, again, asking you to give me your question.
Is your question (which you haven’t asked), how do I know that an unborn fetus which (allegedly) is full of original sin and fit for eternal torture... has a belief in Jesus?
Is that what you are asking me?
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07 Nov 18
1 edit
So let’s get this straight, we are all born in sin, we’re all bound up in folly and have a heart of darkness which means we deserved to be tortured alive for eternity by the loving Jesus...but...we are all born believing in God.
Briefly, your points - (I said briefly)
1.) We are all born in sin.
That's what I see in the Bible.
2.) we’re all bound up in folly and have a heart of darkness -
That's what I see in the Bible.
3.) we deserved to be tortured alive for eternity
That is not as cut and dry as some would say.
Ie. John 15:22 .
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. (John 15:22)
There are some unknowns to me as I read the Bible again and again. But it does say we are all "children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3) .
In the book of Jonah God knew the exact count of those whom He deemed were not worthy of the judgment that was coming upon the society.
And I [God], should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot discern between their right hand and their left, ... {Jonah 4:11)
God kept count of the 120,000 plus people whom He would not hold culpable. Is there any reason I should believe that He cannot judge with the same wisdom concerning all mankind?
Again, to the depressed prophet Elijah who was sure that all israel would be judged by God, God kept count of the number of people who would not be culpable in being condemned.
Yet I [God] have left Myself seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed unto Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him. ( 1 Kings 19:18)
While I don't know all the details there is no particular reason for me to believe God's wisdom is incompetent, or shortsighted, or unjust in His absolute knowledge of each person's individual situation.
I expect that we will all be shocked at the extent of God's knowledge and wisdom.
The error of some of us is that we figure this way -
If God is eternal love then He cannot be a perfect Righteous Judge.
Or conversely others reason if God is a perfect Righteous Judge then He cannot be a God of eternal love.
The Bible reveals that God is both. Your mission seems to be to argue that God cannot be both.
Your questions above are designed to highlight that - God cannot be the perfect Righteous Judge and the Loving Savior at the same time.
4.) we are all born believing in God.
I don't think a person has ever lived that didn't know that at least God is. They know, maybe not much. But they know.
"Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them.
For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse..." (Rom. 1:19,20)
They may not know much. But they realize something. Or God's word is lying in Romans . I believe the former.
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07 Nov 18
1 edit
Now, Dive, I don't think I saw any answer from you on this question.
How can you demonstrate that when a person dies he ceases from sinning?
If man has blasphemed God during his life, what reason should I be assured of that once he dies his soul will not continue to commit the sin of blasphemy against his Creator?
I don't know that he ceases. And if he does not cease, I don't know that God will not let him know how He feels about his blasphemy.
Maybe as long as he angers God judgment continues even though he is in another realm.
You prove to me that death terminates his crime committing against God. I am opened to you demonstrating it because it is not that clear to me.
And this word in Revelation seems to indicate a man or woman remaining in a certain state at some point perpetually.
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still;
and let him who is filthy be filthy still;
and let him who is righteous do righteousness still;
and let him who is holy be holy still." (Rev. 22:11)
How do I know that cannot pertain to a man crossing the threshold of death? And if it does, it stands to reason that God will forever show such a sinner what God thinks about his endless sinning.
But you have a chance to persuade me that we cannot be frozen on a track that will continue on into eternity at some point. Present your biblical reasons and I'll consider them.
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07 Nov 18
@sonship saidConversely, does the baby come out declaring -
@divegeester
Considering we are all born atheists it’s amazing anyone becomes a Christian.
Right. Smack a newborn baby on its behind to make it breath, and immediately out comes -
"Oh, I just want you all to know that I lack a belief in gods."
"Oh, I just want you all to know, I believe in God"?
(Babies are born with a lack of speech and a complete lack of belief in the divine, rendering them atheists).
07 Nov 18
@ghost-of-a-duke saidTrue so making any claim requires a source that shows something. As far as I know scripture is the only thing that shows it is possible that they hold knowledge about this.
Conversely, does the baby come out declaring -
"Oh, I just want you all to know, I believe in God"?
(Babies are born with a lack of speech and a complete lack of belief in the divine, rendering them atheists).
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07 Nov 18
@kellyjay saidPlease elaborate.
True so making any claim requires a source that shows something. As far as I know scripture is the only thing that shows it is possible that they hold knowledge about this.
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07 Nov 18
@sonship saidWhat’s the question sonship?
Now, Dive, I don't think I saw any answer from you on this question.
How can you demonstrate that when a person dies he ceases from sinning?
If man has blasphemed God during his life, what reason should I be assured of that once he dies his soul will not continue to commit the sin of blasphemy against his Creator?
I don't know that he ceases. And if he does not ...[text shortened]... will continue on into eternity at some point. Present your biblical reasons and I'll consider them.
Seriously dude; I’ve had a 12 hour day with included 4.5 hours of driving, a top customer meeting, a uk management team meeting and a 1-2-1 with chief commercial officer.
Were not all at home reading watchman nee comics and practicing our html skills.
07 Nov 18
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou familiar with John the Baptist, while in his mother’s womb leaped for joy? How does anyone have joy who isn’t aware, why would anyone leap for joy without cause? Cause means a reaction with intent, intent means he knew the what and why he was doing it. An Atheist wouldn’t do that, neither would a lifeless blob.
Please elaborate.
07 Nov 18
@divegeester saidYou deflected and refused to answer during the discussion. Now I don’t care what you think about those topics.
Ok that’s fine, but no dishonestly later claiming I ignored you.
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07 Nov 18
@kellyjay saidDid you just equate an atheist with a lifeless blob?!
You familiar with John the Baptist, while in his mother’s womb leaped for joy? How does anyone have joy who isn’t aware, why would anyone leap for joy without cause? Cause means a reaction with intent, intent means he knew the what and why he was doing it. An Atheist wouldn’t do that, neither would a lifeless blob.