Mankind didn't fall

@rajk999 said
James needs to study the whole bible as well.

I'm sure he did; you should, too it may line up your doctrine with the whole Word of God instead of the bits and pieces you like while ignoring the parts you don't.

@kellyjay said
I'm sure he did; you should, too it may line up your doctrine with the whole Word of God instead of the bits and pieces you like while ignoring the parts you don't.

Of course he did. Is you church Christians that dont read the whole bible.

@rajk999 said
Of course he did. Is you church Christians that dont read the whole bible.

This should be very easy for you then, "Works alone is alive" show me in the Bible where this is confirmed.

@rajk999 said
I get the impression that James is saying the opposite.

You interpret James -
One cannot just run around doing good works as notches in their belts, so to speak. A love in doing good must be there also.

I think James is saying
One cannot just run around proclaiming to have faith and not do good works. That persons faith is dead

Personally I do no ...[text shortened]... and independent
Faith alone is dead
Works alone is alive
Faith and Works together is perfection.

Faith alone is dead
Yes.
Works alone is alive
No one does good works without the faith that they are good works.
[Romans 9:30-33 NKJV] 30 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because [they did] not [seek it] by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

[Galatians 2:16 NKJV] 16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

I've met people who volunteer at different places because they feel that they are earning their way to Heaven. Punching in and out on a time-clock (so to speak) to show God all of their volunteer "Good works" hours that they have built up.

@kellyjay said
This should be very easy for you then, "Works alone is alive" show me in the Bible where this is confirmed.

Here is one - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26 KJV)

James equates
- faith with the body
- works with the spirit

Both faith / body are dead
They need works / spirit which is the life
The spirit can exist without the body,
Works can exist without faith

Paul said charity is GREATER THAN faith
Paul never said charity needs faith

Jesus said
... Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Matthew 25:34-36 KJV)

Not one word about faith. Those who do these things get life.

@kingdavid403 said

[Galatians 2:16 NKJV] 16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

People do not need to profess faith in God to do good works.
The bible says no such thing.

@rajk999 said
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

People do not need to profess faith in God to do good works.
The bible says no such thing.

Exactly.

@rajk999 said
Here is one - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26 KJV)

James equates
- faith with the body
- works with the spirit

Both faith / body are dead
They need works / spirit which is the life
The spirit can exist without the body,
Works can exist without faith

Paul said charity is GREATER THAN faith
P ...[text shortened]... nto me. (Matthew 25:34-36 KJV)[/i]

Not one word about faith. Those who do these things get life.

[Romans 3:27-31 NKJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or [is He] the God of the Jews only? [Is He] not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since [there is] one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

[James 2:22, 24 NKJV] 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ... 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

@rajk999 said
Here is one - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26 KJV)

James equates
- faith with the body
- works with the spirit

Both faith / body are dead
They need works / spirit which is the life
The spirit can exist without the body,
Works can exist without faith

Paul said charity is GREATER THAN faith
P ...[text shortened]... nto me. (Matthew 25:34-36 KJV)[/i]

Not one word about faith. Those who do these things get life.

"Works alone is alive"

I don't see that in these scriptures, are you sure it is in the Bible?
Faith without works is dead, no one is saying that is not true.
The question is, "Works alone is alive" you have to find those words or at least something that says there with works you can be alive, something!

I don't think you see "James equates" in the Bible either.

The question isn't about charity or love even, "Works alone is alive" show that!

Not asking about faith, you can have faith to move mountains but without love, it is meaningless, nothing.

@rajk999 said
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:24 KJV)

People do not need to profess faith in God to do good works.
The bible says no such thing.

"Works alone is alive"

The Bible does not say this either.

@kingdavid403 said
I agree with much of what you and moonbus are saying here. However, moonbus kinda hit the nail on the head, in my opinion, with this statement:
"We prevailed only because we bonded into groups and cooperated."
In my opinion, we have only survived because of the love in us for each other; which is not much for those outside of our own personal cultures and world ...[text shortened]... d; in my opinion.
Accomplishing perfect love in ones self is beyond a life-long task for any human.

We prevailed, in part, because we care for the sick, the wounded, the lame and the weak, the aged and the handicapped. The oldest human remains we have discovered prove this; people with disabilities were buried with care and attention, and often with their personal effects (though personal effects might have been useful to the tribe). We have done this from the earliest pre-historic times. Why would 'primitive' humans have done this? A purely naturalistic answer would be that even people with disabilities can still provide useful functions to the tribe or clan. The aged can baby-sit while hunters and gatherers go hunting and gathering; a man with a clubfoot might make spear points (maybe better than a hunter can make them), even though he is not agile enough to become a hunter himself. But this is not an entirely satisfactory answer; I think there is ample evidence that love is a great motivator and always was, in caring for the sick and the wounded and the aged and the handicapped. In almost all other species, any animal which is sick or deformed in any way is cast out of the hive; humans don't do that and never did. This enabled us to prevail over big predators and continues to enable us to survive hardships of all kinds.

I say in almost all other species; I recently came across an account which astounded me. A chimp mother gave birth to a deformed baby. Usually, deformed infants are cast out or abandoned, by the dominant male if not by the mother herself. In this case, however, the mother was especially protective of the deformed infant, not allowing other mothers (or the alpha male) to come near it. Whereas, in the chimp community, it is quite common for several females to care for several infants communally. This instance suggests something I can hardly NOT see as the emotion of compassion, which I had previously assumed was unique to humans.

@kellyjay said
"Works alone is alive"

The Bible does not say this either.

Justified by works.
Its in the bible

@rajk999 said
Justified by works.
Its in the bible

Chapter and verse, remember works alone is what you are attempting to prove; works and faith are not works alone. Works without love also don't cut it; what you suggested goes against scripture that says we are saved by grace through faith which is a gift of God, not by works of righteousness.

"Works alone is alive."

"Justified by works."
Not works alone, works and faith together, yes, not works alone, or faith alone either.

@kellyjay said
Chapter and verse, remember works alone is what you are attempting to prove; works and faith are not works alone. Works without love also don't cut it; what you suggested goes against scripture that says we are saved by grace through faith which is a gift of God, not by works of righteousness.

"Works alone is alive."

"Justified by works."
Not works alone, works and faith together, yes, not works alone, or faith alone either.

James 2 : 24

@rajk999 said
James 2 : 24

The whole Bible not just a verse out of context to prove your point. NOTHING in any of this says that works alone is alive, that works alone are all that is required, you need to prove your point or admit you have been wrong about works, faith, love, and forgiveness.

James 2:
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

The two together have meaning; apart from each other, they are worthless when doing something the Lord accepts. You have faith; without works, it is dead; you have works without faith; there is nothing redeemable about that.


Romans 4:3-5
English Standard Version
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,